Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

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gaz
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Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Postby gaz » 9 Mar 2017, 8:18am

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cy ... -cycle-mat

Thanks to West Midlands Police, other forces around the UK want to do the same. But after years of Government cost cutting – they need our help! West Midlands Police say there should be no excuse for driving too close to vulnerable road users.

At Cycling UK, we say there should be no excuse for the police to ignore this illegal driving behaviour.

Every single police force in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland needs a safe pass mat like this. By bulk buying, we can cut costs and help police keep our roads safe.

That’s why we need to raise £12,000 and are appealing to cyclists across the UK to help us.

With this money we will make sure every police force can educate drivers how to overtake vulnerable road users safely, just like West Midlands Police.

It is sad to think that the only thing stopping other Police forces across the UK rolling out an education and enforcement campaign on close passes is the cost of a plastic mat. If that really is the case then I welcome the initiative.

I've no recollection of anything similar happening before, not so much blue sky thinking as grey mat thinking.
It's got nothing to do with vorsprung durch technic you know ...

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531colin
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Re: Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Postby 531colin » 9 Mar 2017, 8:31am

Image

Picture from the "kickstarter" linked......this looks like a pretty good illustration of a desirable passing distance......but what does "the mat" add? It seems to me that its perfectly possible to illustrate a safe passing distance by saying "leave space for a bloke between the cyclist and your car".....and thats much easier for the driver to estimate than 1.5m.
are the police really so demoralised that they need a stage prop to get them to talk to drivers?

hufty
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Re: Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Postby hufty » 9 Mar 2017, 8:39am

I take it the copper is printed on the mat? In which case it's going to look a bit strange viewed from a different angle. Needs a rethink.
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Steady rider
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Re: Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Postby Steady rider » 9 Mar 2017, 8:51am

The 1.5 on the mat would not be the actual clearance, about 300 mm less in practice, 1.2m.

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Paulatic
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Re: Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Postby Paulatic » 9 Mar 2017, 8:59am

What do others think but I'm very uncomfortable with that cyclists line at 75cms. Could it backfire and motorists insist we should be at that point in the road. If you are further out does it give a motorist legitimacy to pass closer.
I think the HC has it right if only motorists would obey it.
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gaz
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Re: Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Postby gaz » 9 Mar 2017, 9:13am

More on the proposal from Cycling UK here.
It's got nothing to do with vorsprung durch technic you know ...

thirdcrank
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Re: Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Postby thirdcrank » 9 Mar 2017, 9:36am

Overall, I think that if there was any real police interest in ... er ... rolling these mats out nationally, then the price of the mats would not be a hurdle. If the problem is that up and down there are a couple, possibly a few more, of forces where a few traffic officers would like to give this a go, then that's a bit different. Just as the road to Hell is paved with good intentions, so police garages and storerooms seem to be lined with the remains of forgotten bright ideas from earlier years.

When we had the original thread about this, I asked if anybody had any experience of this in practice. Let's remember, this is the middle of Brum, not Anchorage or Ulan Bator. I'd feel much more positive about the whole scheme if riders were reporting improvements in driver behaviour. It's the difference between looking like a good idea and being made to work.

viewtopic.php?p=1079672#p1079672

If it's going to be policing by media release, one set of mats or even one set of pics would do.

PS IIRC The police officer in Brum riding the bike wore a distinctive jumper. If this did catch on, the CTC might consider marketing them to all cyclists in the hope that drivers would give them more room.

PPS It seems at least one force has already said (pre-offer of a free mat) that they won't be doing this.

viewtopic.php?p=1081351#p1081351

reohn2
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Re: Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Postby reohn2 » 9 Mar 2017, 10:41am

Chalk?
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Tangled Metal
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Re: Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Postby Tangled Metal » 9 Mar 2017, 10:42am

Sorry but this idea does not sit well with me.

First the mats are only of use in an organized safety campaign. How many forces are going to spend on that?

Second i believe that safe cycling means 0.75m to 1.0m is where you should be riding. Even further out if conditions require it. No matter what this mat gives the message that 0.75m is where you should ride not a guidance distance.

Third point is something i read on here by someone quoting the current highway code edition (mine dates from over 20 years ago). It was a picture showing a car overtaking a cyclist with the inside of the car being into the next lane. Basically a vehicle overtaking a cyclist giving them the space that would have been taken up by another vehicle such as a car. If that is what the HC guidance is then the mats are wrong

Fourth point is any police safety campaign that gives the non-cycling section of road users the idea that there are fixed distances to be applied to cyclists and vehicles' interaction with them is wrong. It should be judged according to the road conditions, road furniture, signs, etc. Many factors that create hazards that must be taken into account by the motorist to protect the more vulnerable road user. Plus if in doubt hang back and overtake by moving completely into the next lane. I have the right to be 2.25m out from the kerb, it's on the police mat.

Been said before and much better by others, but this is my view of this. If the CUK are appealing to public good will for money to campaign on cyclist safety then they should make sure it's a good idea. This isn't and potentially a big waste of time.

Tangled Metal
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Re: Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Postby Tangled Metal » 9 Mar 2017, 10:45am

reohn2 wrote:Chalk?

What a good idea! If you don't agree with this appeal then send the CUK campaigns team a box of chalk. include a letter quoting membership number and reasons why you think this kickstarter appeal is wrong headed plus how to use the chalk.

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531colin
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Re: Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Postby 531colin » 9 Mar 2017, 10:47am

thirdcrank wrote:............... police garages and storerooms seem to be lined with the remains of forgotten bright ideas from earlier years............

..........If it's going to be policing by media release, ..........


To me, it sounds like policing by "having a blitz on" whatever happens to be flavour of the moment.
It looks like the scheme is to have a copper on a bike, and set up somewhere round the corner a mat and a car and another copper or two.....
Unfortunately, that suggests to me that if 2 coppers in a patrol car see a "close pass" by a motorist, they won't have their "close pass kit" with them, so they won't pull him over......when all it needs is a car and 2 coppers to illustrate "leave a gap that a bloke can fit into".

Every time i walk up the road to get a loaf of bread, I see at least one car with one or more dodgy tyres. But of course, coppers don't walk up the road any more.....they have to set up a load of cones, and divert people off the road into a layby so that somebody can look at tyres, licences, insurance, and so on.

HumanOnABike
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Re: Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Postby HumanOnABike » 9 Mar 2017, 10:54am

Paulatic wrote:What do others think but I'm very uncomfortable with that cyclists line at 75cms. Could it backfire and motorists insist we should be at that point in the road. If you are further out does it give a motorist legitimacy to pass closer.
I think the HC has it right if only motorists would obey it.


You are not the only one.

Check out some of the twitter chat around this :
https://twitter.com/2_Wheeled_Wolf/stat ... 4814516224
https://twitter.com/Trafficwmp/status/8 ... 9468279811
https://twitter.com/greycells/status/839774092899336192
https://twitter.com/UrbaneCommuter/stat ... 5712635906
https://twitter.com/WeAreCyclingUK/stat ... 4532916224
https://twitter.com/greycells/status/839757724967657473
https://twitter.com/RadWagon/status/839744580929081344

Psamathe
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Re: Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Postby Psamathe » 9 Mar 2017, 12:26pm

I though the CTC/CUK was against such a rule
http://www.cyclinguk.org/sites/default/files/agmagenda2016and2015minutes.pdf wrote:However, Council remains reluctant to specify a ‘headline’ overtaking distance because (for example) even 1.5m may not be enough in some circumstances and we don’t want to risk giving drivers the impression that it is.


Have they now magically changed their mind ? Has their been any announcement about why they've change their mind ?

Ian

reohn2
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Re: Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Postby reohn2 » 9 Mar 2017, 12:30pm

Psamathe wrote:I though the CTC/CUK was against such a rule
http://www.cyclinguk.org/sites/default/files/agmagenda2016and2015minutes.pdf wrote:However, Council remains reluctant to specify a ‘headline’ overtaking distance because (for example) even 1.5m may not be enough in some circumstances and we don’t want to risk giving drivers the impression that it is.


Have they now magically changed their mind ? Has their been any announcement about why they've change their mind ?

Ian

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Psamathe
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Re: Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Postby Psamathe » 9 Mar 2017, 12:30pm

Steady rider wrote:The 1.5 on the mat would not be the actual clearance, about 300 mm less in practice, 1.2m.


Paulatic wrote:What do others think but I'm very uncomfortable with that cyclists line at 75cms. Could it backfire and motorists insist we should be at that point in the road. If you are further out does it give a motorist legitimacy to pass closer.
I think the HC has it right if only motorists would obey it.

I agree and the "campaign" is a disaster.
It does not provide 1.5m clearance as clearance would be 1.5m clear space between the car and any part of the cyclist NOT the centre line of the cyclist.

Also, it clearly defines where the cyclist should be riding i.e. 0.75m out from the curb. This strikes me as being close to 2ndry, suggesting that riding in primary position is no longer acceptable. and this campaign also educates drivers where cyclists should be riding.

I am strongly against this campaign as I consider it will make things worse for cyclists. It is ill thought-out and should be stopped. Where can I vote against it or is anybody getting together a template objection letter/e-mail we can send to CTC/CUK (I'm quite busy to find time to write one right now).

Ian