Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

thirdcrank
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Re: Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Postby thirdcrank » 23 Sep 2017, 7:38pm

Another point that has been discussed on the forum before is the accuracy of police "serious injury" stats. Fatal casualties must be pretty accurate and the only area of incompleteness is that unless something has changed, they are finalised after 30 days, so eg somebody on life support for a long period before the support is removed may not be counted. However, fatal crashes are thankfully relatively few so the numbers are liable to statistically insignificant variations.

Serious injury casualty stats have been contentious. There was a study (by BRAKE?) which I can't find which highlighted a difference between police stats and hospital admissions. The underlying point is that formerly, all injury road accidents were recorded and investigated, so the difference between serious and minor wasn't much of an issue. There were guidelines about what was serious, eg a fracture, and then it was just box ticking. When it was decided to concentrate on KSI - Killed and Seriously Injured, there may have been a tendency to under-record the severity of injuries.

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Re: Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Postby MikeF » 23 Sep 2017, 8:55pm

Vorpal wrote:Think! Road Safety is done by the DfT sometimes in conjunction with other groups.

They've done some about cycling, as well. Unfortunately, unlike the motorcycle ones, the pedal cycle ones seem to be focused on cyclists' behaviour. They did one that I liked about riding centrally in narrow lanes, but the latest definitely put the onus on cyclists not to get squished.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7lBvN80JaQ

They treat children the same way https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxHBVgM9zfg

Horses, though are another matter... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-xdmWwz4cg

p.s. don't read the comments.
That's pretty biased. But then hitting a horse could seriously damage a car, but hitting a pedestrian or cyclist probably wouldn't. :evil:
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Cunobelin
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Re: Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Postby Cunobelin » 24 Sep 2017, 10:19am

As pointed out in the comments section...

The cyclists did not "get in the way of" the lorry, it made and inconsiderate, dangerous and unacceptable decision to "left hook" the cyclist


With reference to the horses......I remember this rather clever one - See Cyclist, Think Horse

Unfortunately it was banned for a while as it was deemed that the young lady was behaving inappropriately by being in a Primary Position and (Horror!!!!) not wearing a helmet. The ban was because the lack of a helmet and the road positioning made the advert "socially irresponsible" (5 Complaints)

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Thankfully the ASA saw sense and lifted the ban after appeals by Cycle Groups including the CTC

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Re: Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Postby mjr » 25 Sep 2017, 12:57pm

thirdcrank wrote:Another point that has been discussed on the forum before is the accuracy of police "serious injury" stats. Fatal casualties must be pretty accurate and the only area of incompleteness is that unless something has changed, they are finalised after 30 days, so eg somebody on life support for a long period before the support is removed may not be counted. However, fatal crashes are thankfully relatively few so the numbers are liable to statistically insignificant variations.

I don't share the confidence on that. Of what cycling campaigners regarded as five fatalities in one year on Norfolk radial commuter routes (that is, the roads heading into or out of the major towns/cities), three were not recorded as fatalities (one unexplained written off as natural causes, one too slow to die so recorded as only a serious injury and one cycle-only incident unrecorded).

In general, though, cycling casualties are relatively small and diverse, so with cycling road safety generally devolved to county level, the numbers get even smaller and it becomes difficult to draw out common factors and so the response is semi-paralysed.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
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Re: WMP - Police Close pass works

Postby mjr » 25 Sep 2017, 1:00pm

Psamathe wrote:And if the real stats don't show an improvement then why would "the scenery for us WOULD change". The "scenery for us WOULD change" only if the initiative worked and the Police have decided not to provide the data to show is works (why not ?).

It's probably that what they've produced convinces 90% of the people for 10% of the cost. You can probably get more data if you want: www.WriteToThem.com
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Re: Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Postby thirdcrank » 25 Sep 2017, 1:51pm

mjr wrote: ... I don't share the confidence on that. Of what cycling campaigners regarded as five fatalities in one year on Norfolk radial commuter routes (that is, the roads heading into or out of the major towns/cities), three were not recorded as fatalities (one unexplained written off as natural causes, one too slow to die so recorded as only a serious injury and one cycle-only incident unrecorded). ...


The point I was trying to make was that the serious injury stats were potentially unreliable and that the fatal stats., though better are probably so infrequent that variations may be statistically insignificant and probably influenced by the availability and standard of emergency medical attention.

The 30 day cut-off for recording deaths has been in operation all the time I can remember and AFAIK, it was introduced by govt., statisticians or at least govt., officials who tend to dictate what info the police supply and in what form. I suspect it's something to do with finalising paper-based systems and might be something which could be changed now the world has moved on from the quill pen. However, it's something that is made clear when govt., stats are published. This statistical recording has no bearing on the investigation of a crash and that's certainly not dropped after 30 days.

Obviously, I can't comment on an individual case without some more info, but if a driver dies at the wheel and then crashes, it's not a fatal crash unless somebody else is killed. It must be the same for a rider who dies on their bike. No death is totally unrecorded and any sudden and unexplained death has to be reported to the coroner. "Explained" in this context means that the deceased must recently have been seen by a doctor who can certify the cause of death. IME, it's normal for most "sudden deaths" to be investigated by the police who report the death to the coroner whose staff then make enquiries with the deceased's own doctor to see if they are able to certify cause of death.

None of this seems to have a direct connection with measuring the success of the Close Pass initiative. What's needed is some measure of the extent of close passing before and after which is likely to be impossible, given there's no official measure of close and even if there were, there's no system for recording it. That's why I would give a lot of credence to a few local riders saying things were noticeably better, or not, as the case may be.

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Re: Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Postby mjr » 25 Sep 2017, 2:20pm

thirdcrank wrote:None of this seems to have a direct connection with measuring the success of the Close Pass initiative. What's needed is some measure of the extent of close passing before and after which is likely to be impossible, given there's no official measure of close and even if there were, there's no system for recording it. That's why I would give a lot of credence to a few local riders saying things were noticeably better, or not, as the case may be.

Yes, I'd agree with that - if the police were detecting close passes, then it would probably be felt unethical not to act upon them, so there's going to be no measure. Non-police reporting of near-misses like www.CollideOScope.org.uk are too new to have much data yet.

The only connection with the Close Pass initiative is to note that I regard even the collision stats as incomplete and rather flawed but still useful, so it's not really a surprise if the CP data is also incomplete and flawed. It's somewhat like trying to measure the location of horses you can't see by shooting at them and listening for fewer hoofbeats - as soon as you start measuring, you're changing behaviour.
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Re: Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Postby CJ » 30 Sep 2017, 3:33pm

reohn2 wrote:
Psamathe wrote:
RickH wrote:I don't know whether or not Lancashire are doing anything else, but I noticed signs up with a pictures of a bike, a car & a double ended arrow with 1.5m on it between them on a popular cycling route. I was driving so couldn't easily stop to take photos.

Whilst a lot depends on the detail, that sounds like an excellent idea. Had CUK spent their money on those, distributed them to local CTC groups and had those put up on roads those local CTC cyclists considered higher risk ... then I'd probably have donated. And for the sums involved they could have produced a lot of such signs - printed plastic corrugated sheet and a couple of zip ties.

(Note: I'm unsure of the legality of making your own signs and attaching them to existing posts in view of drivers - but a lot of people seem to do it incl. local raves, music events, etc.)

Ian

It would've been better if local councils funded by central government,invested in such signs posted permenantly and fitted to speed limit roundals on known well used cycling routes in their areas,with a view to fitting more on all roads in the longer term :wink:

Do we want something like this perhaps?
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Photographed a few weeks ago on a CTC Cycling Holiday in Northern Spain - not a particularly cycle-friendly country but rapidly overtaking Little Blighty in that regard!

Yeah, I know that helmets are supposed to be compulsory in Spain, but there are so many exceptions (in town, uphill, hot weather) that the worst that ever happens is a cop might ask you to put it on. So I took mine but wore it only once (to go down one hill when it was a bit chilly) for about 20 minutes in two weeks.
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Re: Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Postby reohn2 » 2 Oct 2017, 8:16pm

CJ wrote: .....Do we want something like this perhaps?......

That would do just fine,some bobbies to enforce it wouldn't go amiss too :wink:
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Re: Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Postby mjr » 2 Oct 2017, 11:35pm

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Re: Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Postby thirdcrank » 11 Mar 2018, 9:14am

gaz wrote: ... It is sad to think that the only thing stopping other Police forces across the UK rolling out an education and enforcement campaign on close passes is the cost of a plastic mat. If that really is the case then I welcome the initiative. ....


Doesn't time just fly?

Twelve short months since gaz started this thread, the money's been raised and the mats distributed. Perhaps it's time for some sort of update.

Two broad headings:

Has anybody who rides in the West Midlands Police area noticed any sort of improvement in driver behaviour, particularly in terms of overtaking room?

Is anybody anywhere aware of the mats being used in the way envisaged in this crowd-funding initiative, especially in a long-term way, rather than a single eye-catching media opportunity?

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Re: Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Postby Steady rider » 11 Mar 2018, 4:51pm

A reply on the CCC topic mentioned 'The WMP stats say that collisions have reduced since they started the project'

Specific legislation mentioning a minimum passing clearance if passed and included in the HC would go nationwide.
Drafting the legislation would require care.

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Postby Si » 30 Jan 2018, 2:44pm

Steady rider wrote:
https://www.birminghampost.co.uk/news/b ... uk-6215643
dated 2013
I am wondering about the WMP and leave the 1.5m space when overtaking and publicity this may have given to cycling?

That report is a bit dodgy - remember it talks about the percentage among cyclists not the population. Thus if there were only 10 people who ever got on a bike in Birmingham but they all cycled a mile down the road to work, they would beat every other city, inc the Netherlands!

The WMP campaign has received support from the CCCs and has worked with them. The WMP stats say that collisions have reduced since they started the project. It has had some good coverage on the local TV news.