Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

User avatar
The utility cyclist
Posts: 3607
Joined: 22 Aug 2016, 12:28pm
Location: The first garden city

Re: Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Post by The utility cyclist »

Bez wrote:The Plymouth Herald article has now been amended. The collapse of the justice system and all that is decent in the world has been postponed for just a few moments ;)

:roll:
I think your stance on this and your perception that motorists won't take the 75cm as the main thing is wrong. You only have to look at what happened when a coroner made a totally haphazard speculation based on no evidence whatsoever regarding headphones (they themselves showing bias based on false information/misleading hearsay) and immediately the vast majority were stating that headphones should be banned, headphones will kill you whilst wearing them on a bike, you know this because you were defending against such IIRC.

The message that is most definitely to be taken away is not that you must give X space, it's this is where you should be (75cm away from the kerb) or you're in the wrong.
To not understand why is a failure to understand the human psyche in these types of scenarios, humans take what others should be doing, especially outgroup people, to avoid situations/outcomes e.g. helmets/hi-vis, stay off the roads etc when confronted with effectively a telling off/told what to do.

They don't/won't look at themselves first, we already know this as fact and the way the HC and the law is twisted in favour of those {EDIT} in a motorised vehicle, even when it comes to cases in court and because the police and pretty much everyone else is backing this it has plenty of weight so it'll be the 75cm part that is focussed on.
So yes, the takeaway message for the selfish (read average) motorist is that I understood that they should be no more than 75cm from the edge, not my problem if they got killed/injured, felt fearful for their safety/life.

Also, again, without enforcement, it's worse than what we already have because now it's giving targets that would have to be proven in court (just like speeding) - prove I was inside XX distance because we are told that that is what I should give and the 'at least' bit will be ignored too (again we know this to be true), targets that just like speed signs are simply not safe for ALL vulnerable road users in all circumstances and in some circumstances less than a metre is acceptable to, speed differential is a massive factor, a car coming past at a small speed differential (5mph or so) in a straight line without cutting in/revving engine but say 2-2.5 feet from elbow is much less stressful/fearful than a bus/HGV/tipper etc coming past at 5 feet at 40/50/60mph and/or chopping in front.

In any case a motorist will plead that if the XX distance is what I'm told diagramatically/in numerals is safe, then why is XX+XX safer, would that not by definition mean that the XX is not safe enough? This ties the hands of the police and the justice system even more. Without giving official training to every single license holder in a way that re-enforces what we want then how will it hold water for those not given the training because the HC states "at least as much room as you would when overtaking a car" which in itself is moronic but is open for interpretation and as I said above is ignored despite the picture and ignored not just by motorists but the police/justice system also.
Last edited by The utility cyclist on 7 Apr 2017, 12:54am, edited 1 time in total.
SA_SA_SA
Posts: 2360
Joined: 31 Oct 2009, 1:46pm

Re: Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Post by SA_SA_SA »

Thirdcrank:

you seem pessimistic about close pass prosecutions:

does this mean quoting the (now) ancient precedent of a judge pronouncing that a cyclist is entitled to his wobble to an early close passing colliding motorist who didn't get to wriggle out of his charge is now worthless and only digital pass/fail charges will now stick if at all?
------------You may not use this post in Cycle or other magazine ------ 8)
Bez
Posts: 1218
Joined: 10 Feb 2015, 10:41am
Contact:

Re: Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Post by Bez »

The utility cyclist wrote:I think your stance on this and your perception that motorists won't take the 75cm as the main thing is wrong.


Hm? I've been saying that I personally have my doubts about the need for the 0.75m marking on the mat, but more to the point that the media photo showing the arrangement absolutely does risk people reading it that way.

I haven't argued that it should be removed from the mat (despite my personal opinion) because WMP are adamant that it needs to be there to make the education work for the target audience. Like I say, I have to give them the benefit of the doubt on that.

I'm not going to argue against WMP's education process without having more exposure to it that I've had so far. But, on the matter of putting that 0.75m marking in the context of the general media, what I said in the article was, for example:

"One of the key concerns was that when taken out of context the mat could be taken to imply that people should stick to riding 0.75m from the kerb. There’s plenty of evidence on social media to suggest that this concern is not unfounded."
"Maybe that PR photo is making it too easy for things to go wrong."
"It’s hard to look at that PR photo showing those measurements locked in place around a cyclist’s wheel and feel that it was the right image to use."


The utility cyclist wrote:You only have to look at what happened when a coroner made a totally haphazard speculation based on no evidence whatsoever regarding headphones (they themselves showing bias based on false information/misleading hearsay) and immediately the vast majority were stating that headphones should be banned, headphones will kill you whilst wearing them on a bike, you know this because you were defending against such IIRC.


That's a different thing. That's a matter of the shifting of responsibility and fault: the coroner's comments were quite clear in their meaning. The mat is ambiguous, and in the absence of explanation the meaning of it is inferred by the viewer. Now, I agree with others that to open up the opportunity for this inference is a bad thing, but the coroner saying "maybe this woman died at least in part because she was listening to music" is not the same as the police saying "this is the furthest from the kerb we think people should cycle". They're not doing that. They're explaining to people explicitly on social media that this is not the case. Like I say, I think it's a mistake that they've ended up having to do that, but it's not analogous to the headphones remark.

The utility cyclist wrote:it's worse than what we already have because now it's giving targets that would have to be proven in court


No, that's not how the law works.
thirdcrank
Posts: 36776
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Post by thirdcrank »

I'm pessimistic about the collapse in the enforcement of traffic law.

Without repeating or even summarising the vast amounts I've posted on this type of thing, these mats (or rather this WMP mat) is a teaching aid when the police decide that education is the appropriate way to deal with this form of bad driving. Perhaps through amazement that a small part of the police service nationally is doing something - anything - about it, it's been latched onto by some cycle campaigners with an enthusiasm which I fear may later be shown to be misplaced.

This from Bez is pertinent:-

I've said all along that I think the biggest challenge will be to turn this into a sort of franchise. Taking that level of understanding, and that significant shift of philosophy, and just dropping it into other forces, is unlikely to be a straightforward process.


There have been other posts since I started on this one.
thirdcrank
Posts: 36776
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Post by thirdcrank »

Bez wrote:... The acid test being applied is, "would this driving pass the driving test?". ...

Sorry to be resurrecting something from a couple of weeks ago (1 April) but in a subsequent post I mentioned that it might be worth campaigning for the driving test rules to include the subject of overtaking cyclists. In the news today:-

Driving test: Learners must be able to use sat navs

As well as the satnav requirement, there's also this:
Drivers will also be expected to answer vehicle safety questions while on the move and complete 20 minutes of independent driving rather than 10.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39594852

I wonder if they will be expected to maintain respectful eye-contact with the examiner while answering the questions. :? What's next? Demonstrating an ability to text while blindfolded, reciting "They can't touch you for it" backwards. :roll:

In the meantime, nothing specific about safely overtaking cyclists. Why bother when the aim is to force them off the road?

If the current driving test involves only 10 minutes driving it's a joke, IMO.
Cyril Haearn
Posts: 15215
Joined: 30 Nov 2013, 11:26am

Re: Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Post by Cyril Haearn »

thirdcrank wrote:
Bez wrote:... The acid test being applied is, "would this driving pass the driving test?". ...

Sorry to be resurrecting something from a couple of weeks ago (1 April) but in a subsequent post I mentioned that it might be worth campaigning for the driving test rules to include the subject of overtaking cyclists. In the news today:-

Driving test: Learners must be able to use sat navs

As well as the satnav requirement, there's also this:
Drivers will also be expected to answer vehicle safety questions while on the move and complete 20 minutes of independent driving rather than 10.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39594852

I wonder if they will be expected to maintain respectful eye-contact with the examiner while answering the questions. :? What's next? Demonstrating an ability to text while blindfolded, reciting "They can't touch you for it" backwards. :roll:

In the meantime, nothing specific about safely overtaking cyclists. Why bother when the aim is to force them off the road?

If the current driving test involves only 10 minutes driving it's a joke, IMO.


Answering questions while driving? no no no

It is surely a nice little earner for driving instructors, producers of learning aids etc

I *learned to drive* in 1987. Seem to remember there was emphasis on correct use of the handbrake, if in doubt wait..

I understand it changed later, more emphasis on *making progress*. Maybe one could fail for going too slow

I did not fail for going too slow but I am proud to report that I was later once stopped by the cops for that *offence*
Entertainer, juvenile, curmudgeon, PoB, 30120
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras, we hate bullies
PH
Posts: 13106
Joined: 21 Jan 2007, 12:31am
Location: Derby
Contact:

Re: Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Post by PH »

thirdcrank wrote:If the current driving test involves only 10 minutes driving it's a joke, IMO.

It doesn't, it includes around 40 min, of which 10 is independent - As in make your way to Y, rather than following instructions.
PH
Posts: 13106
Joined: 21 Jan 2007, 12:31am
Location: Derby
Contact:

Re: Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Post by PH »

Cyril Haearn wrote:I understand it changed later, more emphasis on *making progress*. Maybe one could fail for going too slow

Undue Hesitation is indeed one of the minor faults that can contribute to a fail.
Young cyclist I know at work was told by his driving instructor that he'd unduly hesitated when he didn't overtake a cyclist. He told the instructor that he wouldn't have wanted to be passed anywhere on that stretch of road and just got a shrug. What hope is there?
thirdcrank
Posts: 36776
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Post by thirdcrank »

PH wrote: ... It doesn't, it includes around 40 min, of which 10 is independent - As in make your way to Y, rather than following instructions.


Thanks for the correction. (I passed my test in the days when you had to ensure the horse had enough oats in its nosebag. :oops: )
User avatar
RickH
Posts: 5834
Joined: 5 Mar 2012, 6:39pm
Location: Horwich, Lancs.

Re: Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Post by RickH »

thirdcrank wrote:In the meantime, nothing specific about safely overtaking cyclists. Why bother when the aim is to force them off the road?

I know someone who failed their 1st go at the test not so long ago (less than 5 years) for passing a cyclist too closely. No idea on the specifics but it would seem to be in the criteria they are marking folk on.
Former member of the Cult of the Polystyrene Head Carbuncle.
thirdcrank
Posts: 36776
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Post by thirdcrank »

RickH wrote: ... know someone who failed their 1st go at the test not so long ago (less than 5 years) for passing a cyclist too closely. No idea on the specifics but it would seem to be in the criteria they are marking folk on.


I'm sure you are right. If you look back a bit above, Bez mentioned that the WMP were using driving test criteria (my words) as the basis for their
enforcement. I checked the driving test criteria and it's not specifically mentioned as an example, although it's in there by implication. My suggestion above was along the lines that we should campaign to have close-passing specifically included simply because it would gain so much more emphasis. Put another way, we don't just want people to fail their driving test for overtaking a cyclist too close, we want the world to know it's a big deal. By coincidence, there's been a well-publicised revamp of the driving test and the world - or at least the UK - knows that coping with a satnav will be important. This is reported as being the first major change in the driving test since the theory test was introduced so we may have missed the bus.
User avatar
Guy951
Posts: 1599
Joined: 14 Jul 2009, 8:23am
Location: Mid Beds

Re: Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Post by Guy951 »

And the mat, or a variation of it, is deployed in Leeds...

From today, plain clothes officers will be patrolling on bikes on the city’s busiest roads, identifying motorists who pass too close for comfort, fail to give way at junctions or are distracted from having a proper view whilst driving.

Offenders seen passing too close to the cyclist will be offered an on-the-spot educational talk on safe overtaking using a specially-designed floor mat.

Anyone who declines to take part in the tutorial, or who is deemed to have committed a particularly dangerous overtaking manoeuvre, could be prosecuted for driving without due care and attention.

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/crime/leeds-drivers-who-pass-too-close-to-cyclists-face-police-crackdown-1-8523133
What manner of creature's this, being but half a fish and half a monster
thirdcrank
Posts: 36776
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Post by thirdcrank »

[quote="Guy951"]And the mat, or a variation of it, is deployed in Leeds... [quote]

I don't know what to make of this. :? Does the YEP have a national readership?
User avatar
Guy951
Posts: 1599
Joined: 14 Jul 2009, 8:23am
Location: Mid Beds

Re: Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Post by Guy951 »

thirdcrank wrote:
Guy951 wrote:And the mat, or a variation of it, is deployed in Leeds...

I don't know what to make of this. :? Does the YEP have a national readership?


I wouldn't be surprised if they did.It's one of the few newspapers left that maintains some sort of journalistic standards. I skim their website most days.

Edit to add: I buy the paper copy when I'm up there

(I have family up there in the frozen North)
What manner of creature's this, being but half a fish and half a monster
thirdcrank
Posts: 36776
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Post by thirdcrank »

Right. I'll monitor the situation and report back if I note an overnight improvement in driving standards. :wink:

==============================================================
PS It's been briefly reported on BBC Look North this evening. The most prominent information seemed to be an emphasis on the numbers of cycling casualties "in our region."

This is from the Look North www. It contains some of the material shown in the programme.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england ... d-cyclists
Post Reply