Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Bez
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Re: Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Post by Bez »

thirdcrank wrote:I doubt if there is, not least because the only objective measure is casualty counting, which isn't the same as that subjective feeling of safety.


There are other objective measures: rate of reporting of close pass incidents (which, if conditions improve, should fall per mile cycled), and travel survey results for cycling journeys (which, if conditions improve, should rise, though clearly other factors will affect this measure).

I believe WMP claim to have already recorded a large drop in the former; I also believe Birmingham are monitoring the latter. We'll see some post-intervention casualty data in September and more next year, of course.
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Re: Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Post by thirdcrank »

Bez wrote: ... There are other objective measures: rate of reporting of close pass incidents (which, if conditions improve, should fall per mile cycled), and travel survey results for cycling journeys (which, if conditions improve, should rise, though clearly other factors will affect this measure).

I believe WMP claim to have already recorded a large drop in the former; I also believe Birmingham are monitoring the latter. We'll see some post-intervention casualty data in September and more next year, of course.


If the police are perceived to be responding positively to reports of close passes, it's almost inevitable that the reports of close passes will increase, even if the real trend is for close passes to fall. And so on. Also, I'd be surprised if anybody was doing much in the way of a truly robust statistical analysis. eg Are there reliable data for the numbers of reports where the complainant was previously fobbed off? Ultimately, what you are trying to measure is whether riders feel more comfortable on the road.

I'm not a statistician but over the years I've understood enough to see where a lot of the stats are unreliable.

I also think that it's a matter of luck which significant events occur. Eg we've had somebody choose to contest a case - not actually part of the project with the police officer riding the bike - who has nevertheless been convicted and that has happened on a day when no men bit a dog so it made it onto the BBC National News www. Valuable publicity which I fancy will have done more than anything else could to influence attitudes on both sides. Had it gone the other way, things might well be worse. Had the driver concerned accepted they were wrong, it would have been one more case in the numbers but having no wider effect.

There are lots of people with degrees in media studies who could explain this better than I can.
Bez
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Re: Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Post by Bez »

thirdcrank wrote:If the police are perceived to be responding positively to reports of close passes, it's almost inevitable that the reports of close passes will increase, even if the real trend is for close passes to fall.


If that theory holds water then it would make the actual recorded fall in reporting even more of an indicator of success.

Your points re statistical robustness are perfectly valid, we'll have to see what WMP, Birmingham Council etc publish. I know there are people who are better than me at statistics who are interested in this so hopefully it will see some scrutiny.
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Re: Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Post by Psamathe »

thirdcrank wrote:
Bez wrote: ... There are other objective measures: rate of reporting of close pass incidents (which, if conditions improve, should fall per mile cycled), and travel survey results for cycling journeys (which, if conditions improve, should rise, though clearly other factors will affect this measure).

I believe WMP claim to have already recorded a large drop in the former; I also believe Birmingham are monitoring the latter. We'll see some post-intervention casualty data in September and more next year, of course.


If the police are perceived to be responding positively to reports of close passes, it's almost inevitable that the reports of close passes will increase, even if the real trend is for close passes to fall. And so on. Also, I'd be surprised if anybody was doing much in the way of a truly robust statistical analysis. eg Are there reliable data for the numbers of reports where the complainant was previously fobbed off? Ultimately, what you are trying to measure is whether riders feel more comfortable on the road......

I would agree and add that I expect the picture is very complex to draw and trends from (particularly short term).

Add in that the Police desperately need "good data" so they can prove they are "doing a good job". So I would be very suspicious about data collected by and analysed by a force about its own campaigns. Particularly over such a short period after a brief campaign. The claims "Incredibly, driving behaviour in the local area changed overnight, with a 50 per cent reduction of reported close pass offences in less than three months." is daft and I've not seen and data suggesting the actual real rate of close passes has reduced. Reported close pass rates can say more about cyclists perceptions of the Police; if they feel they will spend hours submitting paperwork to be told "it's not a priority, nothing will be done" that would cause a reduction in reporting rates as word gets around. Similarly a 50% off cycle video cameras could cause a significant increase in reporting rates (as more people buy them and use them and submit evidence), etc.. Too many external factors that make reporting rates irrelevant.

What would be interesting is, on WMP's 4 test days they caught 80 drivers, so repeat again and see if they only catch 40 drivers (same conditions, same place).

People need to be careful conflating reported rates and actual rates. What concerns me when I'm cycling is the number of close passes I experience, not the number others are reporting to the Police (who have a lot of "higher priority" work).

Ian
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mjr
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Re: Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Post by mjr »

Psamathe wrote:Add in that the Police desperately need "good data" so they can prove they are "doing a good job". So I would be very suspicious about data collected by and analysed by a force about its own campaigns.

This is why independent projects exist - Please consider reporting any near-misses to http://collideoscope.org.uk/
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Re: Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Post by thirdcrank »

Doesn't time fly? Six months since gaz first posted but this has now gone quiet. At one point I considered suggesting a review after a few months; perhaps I did. :? Anyway, I've been reminded of this thread by a depressing post on another. It looks as though one force is using one of these mats as, well, a mat while stopping cyclists in daylight to discuss lights etc.

viewtopic.php?p=1162887#p1162887

Scroll down a bit for Paulatic's explanation or here's his link


https://mobile.twitter.com/TVP_Wycombe/ ... 6959106048

:(
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RickH
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Re: Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Post by RickH »

I don't know whether or not Lancashire are doing anything else, but I noticed signs up with a pictures of a bike, a car & a double ended arrow with 1.5m on it between them on a popular cycling route. I was driving so couldn't easily stop to take photos.
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Re: Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Post by reohn2 »

RickH wrote:I don't know whether or not Lancashire are doing anything else, but I noticed signs up with a pictures of a bike, a car & a double ended arrow with 1.5m on it between them on a popular cycling route. I was driving so couldn't easily stop to take photos.

Yes I've noticed a couple of those on my travels but they don't appear to be perminent fixtures,only corregated plastic sheet ziptied to sign/lamps posts,etc,and was concerned they won't last long :? .
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Psamathe
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Re: Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Post by Psamathe »

RickH wrote:I don't know whether or not Lancashire are doing anything else, but I noticed signs up with a pictures of a bike, a car & a double ended arrow with 1.5m on it between them on a popular cycling route. I was driving so couldn't easily stop to take photos.

Whilst a lot depends on the detail, that sounds like an excellent idea. Had CUK spent their money on those, distributed them to local CTC groups and had those put up on roads those local CTC cyclists considered higher risk ... then I'd probably have donated. And for the sums involved they could have produced a lot of such signs - printed plastic corrugated sheet and a couple of zip ties.

(Note: I'm unsure of the legality of making your own signs and attaching them to existing posts in view of drivers - but a lot of people seem to do it incl. local raves, music events, etc.)

Ian
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Re: Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Post by reohn2 »

Psamathe wrote:
RickH wrote:I don't know whether or not Lancashire are doing anything else, but I noticed signs up with a pictures of a bike, a car & a double ended arrow with 1.5m on it between them on a popular cycling route. I was driving so couldn't easily stop to take photos.

Whilst a lot depends on the detail, that sounds like an excellent idea. Had CUK spent their money on those, distributed them to local CTC groups and had those put up on roads those local CTC cyclists considered higher risk ... then I'd probably have donated. And for the sums involved they could have produced a lot of such signs - printed plastic corrugated sheet and a couple of zip ties.

(Note: I'm unsure of the legality of making your own signs and attaching them to existing posts in view of drivers - but a lot of people seem to do it incl. local raves, music events, etc.)

Ian

It would've been better if local councils funded by central government,invested in such signs posted permenantly and fitted to speed limit roundals on known well used cycling routes in their areas,with a view to fitting more on all roads in the longer term :wink:
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thirdcrank
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Re: Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Post by thirdcrank »

If temporary signs have been erected, they might easily be unofficial. I've not checked but I fancy there isn't a prescribed sign of this type or we'd be seeing more official info about them. Once upon a time, the CTC had the right to erect traffic signs, as do the AA and RAC. I don't know if Cuk retains that right. We have had threads displaying some old examples, typically signs warning of steep hills.

It's worth remembering that, as blue rectangles, the <-1.5m-> signs would be advisory.
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Re: Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Post by Psamathe »

reohn2 wrote:
Psamathe wrote:
RickH wrote:I don't know whether or not Lancashire are doing anything else, but I noticed signs up with a pictures of a bike, a car & a double ended arrow with 1.5m on it between them on a popular cycling route. I was driving so couldn't easily stop to take photos.

Whilst a lot depends on the detail, that sounds like an excellent idea. Had CUK spent their money on those, distributed them to local CTC groups and had those put up on roads those local CTC cyclists considered higher risk ... then I'd probably have donated. And for the sums involved they could have produced a lot of such signs - printed plastic corrugated sheet and a couple of zip ties.

(Note: I'm unsure of the legality of making your own signs and attaching them to existing posts in view of drivers - but a lot of people seem to do it incl. local raves, music events, etc.)

Ian

It would've been better if local councils funded by central government,invested in such signs posted permenantly and fitted to speed limit roundals on known well used cycling routes in their areas,with a view to fitting more on all roads in the longer term :wink:

That sounds like the sort of thing CTC/CUK should be pushing for - in the interests of cyclists and cycling, making things safer for us all ...

And it probably would not cost that much if such signs were installed as other routing works were carried out (e.g. vegetation clearing round signs, repairing damaged signs, etc.).

Where did the "Think Bike" (for motorcycles) come from, who pushed for it, designed it installed the signs, etc.? I see a fair number of the "Think Bike" (motorcycle) signs around.

Ian
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Re: Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Post by thirdcrank »

If they aren't "lawfully erected" it makes no difference if they are pear-shaped. Just because a sign is there, doesn't mean it's lawfully erected. Different highway authorities take a different view about unauthorised signs. Around here, for example, they have people going round removing all the ads for Polish plumbers and the like you see on railings.

A few years ago when LCAG organised Leeds National Bike Week on a big scale, with support from Leeds City Council, the cycling part of the highways dept produced some temporary signs (estate agents' board) which we fastened to lamp standards etc near where traffic regularly queued with a message along the lines "Cycling time to city centre N minutes" and we added the relevant time. I understand there was some chuntering in some quarters that it was wrong for one part of the department to be removing unauthorised signs while another was encouraging people to put them up.

Different authorities take different views to things like ghost bikes and roadside memorials.
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Re: Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Post by mjr »

thirdcrank wrote:If temporary signs have been erected, they might easily be unofficial. I've not checked but I fancy there isn't a prescribed sign of this type or we'd be seeing more official info about them.

Diagram 857B (tourist information blue signs) has sufficient permitted variation to allow it to be used as a sign of this type, although it wouldn't really be what was intended.

For that matter, I'm not sure what prescribes the very variable-quality "THINK!" signs that many highway authorities now erect. They seem official. Does anyone reading this know?

thirdcrank wrote:Once upon a time, the CTC had the right to erect traffic signs, as do the AA and RAC. I don't know if Cuk retains that right. We have had threads displaying some old examples, typically signs warning of steep hills.

I understand that CTC retains that right but currently has no process to erect or maintain such signs. I suspect this is as what RTRA refers to "a body which is prescribed in regulations made by the national authority" but I don't know what those regulations are!

thirdcrank wrote:It's worth remembering that, as blue rectangles, the <-1.5m-> signs would be advisory.

Good advice, though!
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Steady rider
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Re: Kickstarter - CyclingUK asking for donations to fund "close pass" mats.

Post by Steady rider »

Perhaps Cycling UK should go back to the drawing board on this one.
The 1.5m clearance distance refers to vehicle wing mirror to cyclist centre line, effectively about 1.2m clearance.
The early suggestions were for legislation in AGM motions that Council did not support. One reason was concerning passing on narrow country lanes where motorists squeeze past, often at moderate to low speeds.
Any legislation would need to take account of narrow country lanes. Promoting any road safety measure based on donations is questionable, if its a good measure it deserved the full force of the law.
Cycling UK could prepare a suitable proposal for a private members bill and ask all MPs if they will submit or support it.

Suggestion of 1m minimum clearance when overtaking cyclists on roads with speed limits up to and including 30mph. On roads with higher speed limits, the minimum passing distance should be 1.2m. On narrow roads, without centre lines, motorists should only overtake where it is safe to do so or at low speeds (20 mph or less) and providing it is safe to pass.

At 1.0m clearance, the wing mirror to cyclist centre line distance would be approximately 1.3m, over 4 feet.
it is more specific than advice in the Highway Code, the Code does not give a minimum distance. How many prosecutions for close passing in the past 6 months? Could your MP ask for this info or Member of the Lords?

edited once
Last edited by Steady rider on 14 Sep 2017, 12:23pm, edited 1 time in total.
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