"Minimise the time with a mix of human-driven & driverless cars"

PeterFord
Posts: 8
Joined: 13 May 2017, 6:42pm

"Minimise the time with a mix of human-driven & driverless cars"

Post by PeterFord »

A year ago, Cycling UK submitted a response about the Government's draft Cycling and Walking Investment Strategy (CWIS). Here's the PDF, but I'll quote the whole driverless car section here:

Driverless cars

The recent Queen's Speech included the announcement of the Government's intention to introduce a Modern Transport Bill, which will (among other things) facilitate the introduction of driverless cars.

The adoption of driverless cars could be either a huge benefit or a huge disbenefit for the promotion of cycling and cycle safety, depending on how it is done:
  • It could lead either to large increases or large decreases in car ownership, depending on whether it makes car ownership normal among people who currently cannot drive (including children), or whether it substantially boosts the popularity of car-sharing clubs (enabling people to order a driverless car to come to their front door as easily as they can currently order an Uber car).
  • Similarly it could hugely improve or worsen the safety and convenience of cycling. Fears that pedestrians and cyclists can simply run or swerve out in front of driverless cars – knowing that they would stop – could result in regulation that would severely restrict cycle movement. Conversely, the total adoption of driverless cars could mean motor vehicles being steered as precisely and predictably as if they were on rails. This would be extremely space-efficient, freeing up space for cycling. Further space could be freed up by reduction in car parking demand that would result from a marked shift from car ownership to car sharing clubs.
Cycling UK seeks assurances that driverless cars will not be permitted on roads other than motorways until it has been shown that they can reliably detect cycles and cyclists, and respond accordingly. Since cyclists negotiate for roadspace using eye contact, this is hugely important.

However, once the detection technology is reliable, we seek the rapid and complete introduction of fully driverless cars. We wish to minimise the time-period in which there is a mix of human-driven and driverless cars on the road, given that this transition phase will provide only disadvantages and no advantages for cycle use and cycle safety.
(my emphasis)

I commend Cycling UK for bringing up the issue generally. But I'd like to start a conversation about that final paragraph.

"This transition phase will provide only disadvantages and no advantages for cycle use and cycle safety." I accept that this is a possibility, but to imply that it is the only possibility seems wrong to me. I think there is another realistic possibility: that as soon as there are some autonomous vehicles on the roads, cyclists are safer, and as the proportion of autonomous vehicles increases, cyclist safety keeps on increasing. I refer to this as the "gradually safer" scenario.

Now as I said, this was a year ago. But I have also found a hint in 2017 that we may still have this mindset about a dangerous "transition period". Cycle-campaign-news-january-2017:
We also share concerns about the transition period.


If it does turn out that my "gradually safer" scenario is correct, then even the actual term "transition period" may be best avoided, as it might lead people to think in terms of everything already being planned in advance, including an 'endgame' for human-driven vehicles, and thus delay the potential early advantages of autonomous vehicles. (AKA self-driving vehicles)

My Proposals

1 - http://www.cyclinguk.org/current-campaigns A new campaign should be added, along the lines of "Vehicle Autonomy - Making Sure It's Done Right"

2 - The people within Cycling UK who are worried about a disadvantageous "transition period", should detail their concerns as part of this new campaign, but should not rule out all other scenarios unless they have documented a convincing argument.

Thoughts?
Last edited by PeterFord on 15 May 2017, 2:07pm, edited 1 time in total.
landsurfer
Posts: 5327
Joined: 27 Oct 2012, 9:13pm

Re: "Minimise the time with a mix of human-driven & driverless cars"

Post by landsurfer »

*&^%$£@
Last edited by landsurfer on 17 May 2017, 8:15pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Quiet, calm deliberation disentangles every knot.”
Be more Mike.
The road goes on forever.
PeterFord
Posts: 8
Joined: 13 May 2017, 6:42pm

Re: "Minimise the time with a mix of human-driven & driverless cars"

Post by PeterFord »

landsurfer wrote:It is not the development of av road vehicles that should come first but the hardened, hack free software.
While software can be remotely hacked the whole concept of av should be on hold.

So from a perspective of what Cycling UK should be doing, it sounds like you agree with my proposal #1, and would want our new campaign to be very firm about IT security issues?

And what about my proposal #2? Perhaps it doesn't matter much to you because you feel the IT security aspect is so much more important?
landsurfer
Posts: 5327
Joined: 27 Oct 2012, 9:13pm

Re: "Minimise the time with a mix of human-driven & driverless cars"

Post by landsurfer »

*&^%$£@
Last edited by landsurfer on 17 May 2017, 8:13pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Quiet, calm deliberation disentangles every knot.”
Be more Mike.
The road goes on forever.
atlas_shrugged
Posts: 534
Joined: 8 Nov 2016, 7:50pm

Re: "Minimise the time with a mix of human-driven & driverless cars"

Post by atlas_shrugged »

In 2015 at a velomobile seminar in Austria one of the presenters had a good suggestion. This was that driverless capability should first be introduced with Ultra Light Vehicles i.e. with velomobiles. The reason is because they are so much lighter their destructive kinetic energy, should they go gaga, is about 51 times less (based on 100kg vs 2000kg and 50 km/h vs 80 km/h) so they would do less damage.

This is not the only advantage. Because they could be speed limited to 50km/h there would be more time to take avoiding action. Also because they are smaller there is less probability of being hit by an HPV.

This is just a thought. I realise it is a different suggestion (which was very good) than the OP.
landsurfer
Posts: 5327
Joined: 27 Oct 2012, 9:13pm

Re: "Minimise the time with a mix of human-driven & driverless cars"

Post by landsurfer »

PeterFord wrote:
landsurfer wrote:It is not the development of av road vehicles that should come first but the hardened, hack free software.
While software can be remotely hacked the whole concept of av should be on hold.

So from a perspective of what Cycling UK should be doing, it sounds like you agree with my proposal #1, and would want our new campaign to be very firm about IT security issues?

And what about my proposal #2? Perhaps it doesn't matter much to you because you feel the IT security aspect is so much more important?


You've got it .... and after this weekends events #1 becomes the real issue ....
“Quiet, calm deliberation disentangles every knot.”
Be more Mike.
The road goes on forever.
User avatar
[XAP]Bob
Posts: 19801
Joined: 26 Sep 2008, 4:12pm

Re: "Minimise the time with a mix of human-driven & driverless cars"

Post by [XAP]Bob »

So it's a knee jerk to a specific incident which hit no one who had a shred of IT sense...
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
User avatar
The utility cyclist
Posts: 3607
Joined: 22 Aug 2016, 12:28pm
Location: The first garden city

Re: "Minimise the time with a mix of human-driven & driverless cars"

Post by The utility cyclist »

[XAP]Bob wrote:So it's a knee jerk to a specific incident which hit no one who had a shred of IT sense...

Knee jerking is all the rage though the last couple of decades. Just look at the amount of money and actions taken over terrorsim, all the while over a million people are being slaughtered and tens of millions seriously injured and barely an eyelid is being raised.

The billions spent on failed NHS IT systems over the years is scandalous, that and no-one seemed to think that unsecure networks/hardware was an issue. There's obviously swathes of the NHS open to be hacked/infiltrated and it wouldn't take much effort to do so IMHO, also good IT procedure in general seems to be sloppy/non existant everywhere from my many visits to clinics/hospitals.

In the meantime, having secure software and indeed a singular programme for all vehicles has to be the first thing to get right as mentioned above. It's no good raising an issue about cycle/pedestrian safety during any transition period when vehicles are not even programmed correctly or within very, very small ranges of differences because that then leads to differing reactions by the vehicles for same/similar scenarios which leads to basically what we have now in some respects differing levels of driving ability.

Focus on simply getting people out of motorised vehicles altogether and restricting use in areas where people on bikes and pedestrians can get about their business should be of greater focus because it's something that can be acted upon now and isn't waiting for a far down the line route that could be decades away. But that would be all knee-jerky going by the reaction of many to installing quiet-ways, segregated infra, restricting motorvehicle use etc.
Bmblbzzz
Posts: 6325
Joined: 18 May 2012, 7:56pm
Location: From here to there.

Re: "Minimise the time with a mix of human-driven & driverless cars"

Post by Bmblbzzz »

landsurfer wrote:The precept that autonomous vehicles (av) will make cyclists safer is a red herring.
Av are being introduced via a very strange pathway.
Surely av farming vehicles should be in common use before the transition to Motorway use is considered.
It is not the development of av road vehicles that should come first but the hardened, hack free software.
While software can be remotely hacked the whole concept of av should be on hold.
Aircraft rely on their software but the systems monitor (pilot) is always there to provide some backup.
They can always turn on the unhackable Commodore 64 back up computer that allows the aircraft to land.

Farming vehicles must make a more demanding environment than pure road vehicles. A car, bus or lorry has to start and stop at appropriate times and places and move in the correct direction at a suitable speed, as well as give and respond to signals from other vehicles, humans and road signs. A farming vehicle has to do all that and distinguish one field from another, identify crops and different animals, know when and where to plough, drill, etc; all in an environment where, unlike roads, it is extremely unlikely to receive ambient electronic guidance. No road signs in fields!
landsurfer
Posts: 5327
Joined: 27 Oct 2012, 9:13pm

Re: "Minimise the time with a mix of human-driven & driverless cars"

Post by landsurfer »

Bmblbzzz wrote:Farming vehicles must make a more demanding environment than pure road vehicles. A car, bus or lorry has to start and stop at appropriate times and places and move in the correct direction at a suitable speed, as well as give and respond to signals from other vehicles, humans and road signs. A farming vehicle has to do all that and distinguish one field from another, identify crops and different animals, know when and where to plough, drill, etc; all in an environment where, unlike roads, it is extremely unlikely to receive ambient electronic guidance. No road signs in fields!


Surely a farm vehicle can be taken remotely to a field having been installed with the equipment for the task at that location and set off on a programme defined by gps coordinates .... if a tractor ploughs 2 ft to the left by mistake no harm is done .... if a bus moves 2ft to the right by mistake it takes out the oncoming traffic.
Are we really expecting AV's to read road signs ?.... of course not, they would pick up GPS tags modifying their behaviour for the location they were transiting ....
“Quiet, calm deliberation disentangles every knot.”
Be more Mike.
The road goes on forever.
PeterFord
Posts: 8
Joined: 13 May 2017, 6:42pm

Re: "Minimise the time with a mix of human-driven & driverless cars"

Post by PeterFord »

I think this is getting a bit off track. (No pun intended.)

Landsurfer, perhaps the reason road vehicles are being automated before farm vehicles is because there's much more money in it? Take it up with Google, Nissan, Tesla, et al. if you really want to know the reason. And surely you aren't saying that Cycle UK should refuse to campaign about the specific aspects of autonomous driving that might affect cyclists, just because of your personal list of reasons as to why autonomous driving should/will be delayed indefinitely? I actually agree with you that IT security issues aren't taken seriously enough, but I think the powers that be will be more likely to take notice of a (non-IT) organization making that point if the organization was also getting involved in all the other issues too (especially the ones they considers us to actually be knowledgeable in).

So, lets imagine that a new campaign was added to http://www.cyclinguk.org/current-campaigns along the lines of "Vehicle Autonomy - Making Sure It's Done Right"

-----------------------------------------------------

Perhaps that new campaign might have a "Top 10 Issues" list, starting something like this:

1 - Autonomous vehicle behaviour in various specific scenarios, including passing distance, advanced stop lines, certainty of seeing a cyclist in all conditions, doors opening into traffic, etc..

2 - More focus on IT security issues by vehicle manufacturers and software makers.

3 - Due consideration of any problems that might arise from having multiple different autonomous driving systems all active on the public road network at the same time. (I put that in after reading The utility cyclist's comment above.)

4 - Due consideration of the problems that might arise during the period (however long it may be) in which some cars are driven by computers, and some by humans.

5 - Suitable prioritization of the safety of all road users. (C.f. Mercedes deciding to sacrifice pedestrians and cyclists)

6 - Strongly oppose the eventual possibility for "on-road cycling to be banned altogether" (quote from by Roger Geffen here).

7 - TBC, etc.

-----------------------------------------------------

Landsurfer, I hope the inclusion of issue #2 would mean you could potentially approve of such a campaign by Cycling UK.

But to be honest, that's not really relevant to the topic at hand. I started this thread to discuss issue #4, because Cycling UK have already submitted an opinion to the UK government about it, and as I explained above, I don't agree with that opinion.
Last edited by PeterFord on 17 May 2017, 7:49pm, edited 1 time in total.
landsurfer
Posts: 5327
Joined: 27 Oct 2012, 9:13pm

Re: "Minimise the time with a mix of human-driven & driverless cars"

Post by landsurfer »

*&^%$£@
Last edited by landsurfer on 17 May 2017, 8:12pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Quiet, calm deliberation disentangles every knot.”
Be more Mike.
The road goes on forever.
PeterFord
Posts: 8
Joined: 13 May 2017, 6:42pm

Re: "Minimise the time with a mix of human-driven & driverless cars"

Post by PeterFord »

landsurfer wrote:Item 2 and Item 4 are the same issues

No, they aren't.

Just to set things right .... i firmly believe in AV .... but i also firmly believe in getting it right ....

By derailing a conversation about item #4 with a host of other points? Even though Cycling UK has already been actively talking to the government about item #4 for at least a year?
landsurfer
Posts: 5327
Joined: 27 Oct 2012, 9:13pm

Re: "Minimise the time with a mix of human-driven & driverless cars"

Post by landsurfer »

Fair enough .....
“Quiet, calm deliberation disentangles every knot.”
Be more Mike.
The road goes on forever.
Bmblbzzz
Posts: 6325
Joined: 18 May 2012, 7:56pm
Location: From here to there.

Re: "Minimise the time with a mix of human-driven & driverless cars"

Post by Bmblbzzz »

landsurfer wrote:
Bmblbzzz wrote:Farming vehicles must make a more demanding environment than pure road vehicles. A car, bus or lorry has to start and stop at appropriate times and places and move in the correct direction at a suitable speed, as well as give and respond to signals from other vehicles, humans and road signs. A farming vehicle has to do all that and distinguish one field from another, identify crops and different animals, know when and where to plough, drill, etc; all in an environment where, unlike roads, it is extremely unlikely to receive ambient electronic guidance. No road signs in fields!


Surely a farm vehicle can be taken remotely to a field having been installed with the equipment for the task at that location and set off on a programme defined by gps coordinates .... if a tractor ploughs 2 ft to the left by mistake no harm is done .... if a bus moves 2ft to the right by mistake it takes out the oncoming traffic.

I'm not a farmer so I don't feel at all confident in saying that.
Are we really expecting AV's to read road signs ?.... of course not, they would pick up GPS tags modifying their behaviour for the location they were transiting ....

Reading road signs might not be the ideal method but it's what various cars (presumably other vehicles as well) already do, or try to.
Post Reply