Highway Code inappropriate rules

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gaz
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Re: Highway Code inappropriate rules

Post by gaz »

MikeF wrote:Why is Rule 69 just in the section for cyclists? It surely should be in the sections for drivers and motorcyclists as well, or else in general rules. I think this is part of the OP irritation with it. I too find it irritating.

I can understand your irritation. It would be better in the general section. Looking at my 1983 revision (of the 1978 edition) the equivalent clause appears in the general section for
The road user on wheels
...
Signs
34
Know your traffic signs and road markings (see pages 50-55) and act on them always.

I do not know when it migrated from the general section to the cycling section.

Could I speculatively suggest that someone at the DfT decided that motorists have been educated and tested before being given their licence and that the need to obey traffic signs would be conveyed to them during such education and testing. I'd also speculate the someone at the DfT was not a cyclist :wink: .
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thirdcrank
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Re: Highway Code inappropriate rules

Post by thirdcrank »

stork wrote:I agree with the original post -- it is plainly wrong to say that a road user on a cycle 'must' obey all traffic signs and traffic light signals.

Under RTA s.36 you do have to comply with signs, but only where they indicate a statutory prohibition, restriction or requirement or are of certain types which you have to comply with purely on the basis of the sign being there.

There are lots of signs which do not indicate a prohibition, restriction or requirement, and which couldn't be construed as doing so, e.g. triangular warning signs and most information and directional signs. In these cases, there is nothing to 'obey', so not really a problem.

Then there are signs which look like they instruct you to do something, where in fact they don't reflect any legal requirement. The most relevant for cyclists are probably 'cyclists dismount' and the red cycle light at a toucan crossing. The HC is a problem here as it provides fuel for anti-cycling campaigners who don't realise it's not illegal to ignore these signs.

Then there are speed limits. They do reflect a legal requirement, and must be obeyed. However, the legal requirement they reflect is a requirement which applies only to motor vehicles (RTRA s.84). So people on cycles do not have to comply. (There are a few exceptions, for speed limits off the highway, such as those in Richmond Park in London, where speed limits are governed by bye-laws and may apply to cycles).

There are also those which look like they convey a legal requirement but fail to do so because they don't match the traffic regulation order. Locally, for example, we have 'no motor vehicles' signs on roads which have a prohibition on all vehicles, signs permitting the wrong type of vehicles in bus lanes etc. Most school zig-zags have no TRO.

Conversely, there are those signs which must be obeyed even without a TRO. For example, a 'no entry' sign is one of these. Also local to me, there are no entry signs at the entrance to at least two cycle gates (the entry to a contraflow cycle lane), so technically you cannot enter the cycle lane by cycling into it.


The rule quoted by the OP has, like many other HC rules, a footnote giving the relevant legislation including s36 of the RTA 1988.

I've quoted the above post in full, just to make the point that if the HC went into that level of detail it would be an even bigger volume than it has become. I presume the authors were trying to deal with honorary pedestrians who believe that the law does not apply to cyclists. If so, they failed.
belgiangoth
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Re: Highway Code inappropriate rules

Post by belgiangoth »

Psamathe wrote:
Cyclists should ride 75 cm from the kerb. Policy endorsed by the CTC so hs the backing for the countries cyclists (because I'd hate to think that the CTC were not acting with the support of the cycling community).

Ian


75 cm seems very close to me. If I ride 75 cm from the kerb I could be 30 cm from double yellows, less if there's a wide gutter. As I'm 6', which makes me approx average height, my arm stretches out to 3'. If I ride within 3' (approx 1m) of the kerb I can hit pedestrians or street furniture/signage when I signal left. It seems to me that from a basic geometry argument I should not cycle that close to the kerb.
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Re: Highway Code inappropriate rules

Post by Psamathe »

belgiangoth wrote:
Psamathe wrote:
Cyclists should ride 75 cm from the kerb. Policy endorsed by the CTC so hs the backing for the countries cyclists (because I'd hate to think that the CTC were not acting with the support of the cycling community).

Ian


75 cm seems very close to me. If I ride 75 cm from the kerb I could be 30 cm from double yellows, less if there's a wide gutter. As I'm 6', which makes me approx average height, my arm stretches out to 3'. If I ride within 3' (approx 1m) of the kerb I can hit pedestrians or street furniture/signage when I signal left. It seems to me that from a basic geometry argument I should not cycle that close to the kerb.

It is. When the CTC/CUK started pushing their campaign I watched my positioning and I normally more than 75 cm out. But CTC/CUK claim to talk for cyclists despite that there was a significant disagreement with the 75 cm (which CTC/CUK ignored, as always not bothering to respond to e-mails, etc.).

Ian
thirdcrank
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Re: Highway Code inappropriate rules

Post by thirdcrank »

I forgot to mention above that in relation to para 65 - advice on togs particularly helmets, my recollection of comments from Kevin Mayne is that because the membership was so fundamentally divided over this, the CTC could not campaign either way and so supported personal choice.

If anybody wants another helmet thread, there's a place for it.
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Re: Highway Code inappropriate rules

Post by Vorpal »

As far as I know, Cycling UK policy is still to follow the recommendations in Cycle Craft.

Endorsing a campaign is not the same as issuing a new policy.
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gaz
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Re: Highway Code inappropriate rules

Post by gaz »

Repeating the link I posted earlier.: http://www.cyclinguk.org/blog/margareta ... 0%99s-bike
Untitled.png

Seems clear enough to me.
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Re: Highway Code inappropriate rules

Post by Steady rider »

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=45026

The CTC has passed motions asking for changes to the Highway Code when it is next revised. It was last fully revised in 2007, Lord Greaves asked questions in the Lords about the Highway Code.

Cycling UK should have a consultation with members on each part of the Code, looking for suggestions. When it is next fully revised these could be considered. It can be changed without a full review, if say a new law came into being, the next edition would reflect such a change.

viewtopic.php?f=41&t=84618
Adnepos
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Re: Highway Code inappropriate rules

Post by Adnepos »

thirdcrank wrote:I forgot to mention above that in relation to para 65 - advice on togs particularly helmets, my recollection of comments from Kevin Mayne is that because the membership was so fundamentally divided over this, the CTC could not campaign either way and so supported personal choice.

If anybody wants another helmet thread, there's a place for it.


The British Medical Association (BMA) adopted the following policy in 2005 - 'This Meeting [Annual Representative Meeting] supports the compulsory wearing of cycle helmets when cycling'. Following CTC intervention, in 2006 the BMA had its mind changed - 'this Meeting believes that BMA policy on cycle helmets should be based on a continuing review of all available evidence'. This suggests that at the time of the 2007 revision of the Highway Code the CTC likely did have a position on rule #59 'advice', was not paralysed by division of opinion in its membership.

Did the 2007 CTC campaign for the Highway Code to mention that helmets and fluoro clothing be a matter for personal preference?

I opened this thread asking how the Department for Transport came up with these rules. Was any cycling organisation consulted? Did experts point out that these (and other rules) were not appropriate? If so, were they ignored?

I am not particularly interested in helmets or even rule #59.
thirdcrank
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Re: Highway Code inappropriate rules

Post by thirdcrank »

To be frank I'm not really interested in any of it.

Your best source for the information you seek would surely be Cycling Uk, rather than the Cycling Uk forum.
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Re: Highway Code inappropriate rules

Post by Vorpal »

“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
Adnepos
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Re: Highway Code inappropriate rules

Post by Adnepos »

reohn2 wrote:You'll forgive me but I was thinking about cycling related cases.Ive seen a couple where such claims have been tried and successfully defended but don't have any links.
TBH I wondered where this thread was heading.


Note the introduction to the 2017 version of the Highway Code:
Many of the rules in The Highway Code are legal requirements, and if you disobey these rules you are committing a criminal offence... Such rules are identified by the use of the words ‘MUST/MUST NOT’... Although failure to comply with the other rules of The Highway Code will not, in itself, cause a person to be prosecuted, The Highway Code may be used in evidence in any court proceedings under the Traffic Acts to establish liability. This includes rules which use advisory wording such as ‘should/should not’ or ‘do/do not’.

If you look to the outcomes of legal proceedings, you will see that in some cases, expert opinion has trumped rule #59. This disregarding of the Highway Code by courts shows that rule #59 is silly.
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gaz
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Re: Highway Code inappropriate rules

Post by gaz »

Rule #59 has not been disregarded by the Courts. It has been considered, debated and argued in the Courts with due consideration for many other aspects of law specific to each case where one side or the other believed it had some bearing.

I agree it has no place in the Highway Code because IMO there is no evidence base for recommending wearing either helmets or hi-vis.
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Re: Highway Code inappropriate rules

Post by pjclinch »

Psamathe wrote:Cyclists should ride 75 cm from the kerb. Policy endorsed by the CTC so hs the backing for the countries cyclists (because I'd hate to think that the CTC were not acting with the support of the cycling community).


Hmmmm. That a mat has an example 75 cm shown on it isn't the same as a policy saying that's how far out you should always ride.

CTC/CUK also endorse National Standards Cycle Training, which says very different things about road position.

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Psamathe
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Re: Highway Code inappropriate rules

Post by Psamathe »

pjclinch wrote:
Psamathe wrote:Cyclists should ride 75 cm from the kerb. Policy endorsed by the CTC so hs the backing for the countries cyclists (because I'd hate to think that the CTC were not acting with the support of the cycling community).


Hmmmm. That a mat has an example 75 cm shown on it isn't the same as a policy saying that's how far out you should always ride.

CTC/CUK also endorse National Standards Cycle Training, which says very different things about road position.

Pete.

The context it is being used in means that the majority of drivers seeing it will interpret it as saying that because that is what it explicitly states. How many non cycling car drivers will see the CTC/CUK publicity clearly stating 75cm and then go off and search out CTC/CUK policy ?

Ian
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