Highways Agency and Waste of our money

AlaninWales
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Re: Highways Agency and Waste of our money

Post by AlaninWales »

colindash wrote:The thing that struck me was he was heading along inside the old white line at the side of the road (amongst all the road debris ) whilst just on his left was an 8 foot wide strip of pristine tarmac.
If anyone thinks that is any way justifiable I'll gladly sign out of this forum - never to return.

You asked the question:
colindash wrote:Now apart from bloody mindedness why was he doing this ?

People have given valid reasons for doing so which don't necessarily require "bloody mindedness". This causes you to "gladly sign out of this forum"? Sounds to me you'd rather live in an echo chamber than realise there are other points of view than your own.
colindash
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Re: Highways Agency and Waste of our money

Post by colindash »

ok so maybe not clear, so: The cyclist was on the road, at the extreme left of the carriageway in what was the old cycle lane - a white line painted on the road about three feet from the kerb. The new cycle / multiuser path is next to the road and is new flat tarmac - it runs alongside the road unbroken between roundabouts ( the path is so close to the road that if the cyclist fell off to his left he would land on it ). The bit about turning off was probably a bit too much information - this is what I would have done but wasn't totally neccessary, the new path would have got the cyclist to the next roundabout and is pretty much all in view, it was certainly a lot harder to use the road rather than the path. Now I didn't agree with the multiuser path being built in the first place (hence the original post ), but if the HA have put one there I would of thought it would be used - I have tried it out and it is nice and smooth. I suppose it's this thought which perpelxes me: even if I were to get safe cycle paths sorted would they be used, or do people generally like mixing it with juggernauts and covering their skinny tyres in road debris ?
Then something else has struck me - signage or lack of it. Next time I'm cycling around my locality I'll look out for any cycling related signs and see if:
1. there are any 2. Where they need improving 3. where I would put new ones to help people get about safely.

I do find this particular forum difficult - things seem to have to be written in a legal way to avoid misunderstandings, but I have learnt a bit - so I won't write as I speak if I ever post again. Some answers were genuinely very helpful, and even unhelpful answers have made me think about what else needs doing in my locality. So off to draft a letter to my councillor.
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mjr
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Re: Highways Agency and Waste of our money

Post by mjr »

colindash wrote:...the new path would have got the cyclist to the next roundabout and is pretty much all in view, it was certainly a lot harder to use the road rather than the path. Now I didn't agree with the multiuser path being built in the first place (hence the original post ), but if the HA have put one there I would of thought it would be used - I have tried it out and it is nice and smooth. I suppose it's this thought which perpelxes me: even if I were to get safe cycle paths sorted would they be used, or do people generally like mixing it with juggernauts and covering their skinny tyres in road debris ?

I think only a few masochists like playing with lorries so good cycle tracks would be used, but maybe not on someone's first pass along a road. You may think that it was pretty much all in view, but unless your eyesight's better than mine, I doubt you could tell from the point where you'd need to join it whether it actually ends in a sensible junction at the roundabout, or if it does something silly.

You're right that signage is a big part of this. I do spend far too long checking maps and photos of questionable junctions to see whether I feel that I can use a cycleway and signs would reduce that. When I ride without planning a route, I have to allow time for some U-turns and bike lifts - it shouldn't be that way. Consistency and following things like IAN 195/16 or the Sustrans Design Handbook is something that would help in general - if I could expect that most cycleways weren't going to end badly, I could use more of them. Anything you can do to improve that near you would be good for many riders new to the area or cycling in general.
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AlaninWales
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Re: Highways Agency and Waste of our money

Post by AlaninWales »

colindash wrote:Then something else has struck me - signage or lack of it. Next time I'm cycling around my locality I'll look out for any cycling related signs and see if:
1. there are any 2. Where they need improving 3. where I would put new ones to help people get about safely.

I do find this particular forum difficult - things seem to have to be written in a legal way to avoid misunderstandings, but I have learnt a bit - so I won't write as I speak if I ever post again. Some answers were genuinely very helpful, and even unhelpful answers have made me think about what else needs doing in my locality. So off to draft a letter to my councillor.

Generally the typed word is best if it is well-thought through to avoid misunderstandings; I learned this several decades ago in my first encounter with work-related emails.

Yes, the lack of cycle signage may well be a contributory factor. I frequently see wide smooth tarmac for stretches beside the road as I cycle: Whether these are cycle paths or not is usually unclear. I generally ignore them as IME (and in others' as shown above) they often come to bad ends. Jumping off the road onto the intermittent smooth path (when you notice it) and then finding your way back to your route when it runs out, is onerous. If I saw it, realised it was meant to be a cycle path and could see it continued to the next roundabout, I'd probably think about joining it but, by the time I had made up my mind I would be past the entrance... If it went to the next roundabout, would it carry on in my direction using a safe course around the roundabout (unlikely)? Or would it simply end in a give-way sign at right angles to traffic flow, forcing me to stop and making my path to the correct lane for my exit dangerous because I would be starting so much slower (likely). Nah, I'll be "bloody minded" and ignore it, probably wasn't a cycle lane anyway and if it was, it'll be micturate poor design and dangerous.
millimole
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Re: Highways Agency and Waste of our money

Post by millimole »

AlaninWales wrote:
Yes, the lack of cycle signage may well be a contributory factor. I frequently see wide smooth tarmac for stretches beside the road as I cycle: Whether these are cycle paths or not is usually unclear. I generally ignore them as IME (and in others' as shown above) they often come to bad ends. Jumping off the road onto the intermittent smooth path (when you notice it) and then finding your way back to your route when it runs out, is onerous. If I saw it, realised it was meant to be a cycle path and could see it continued to the next roundabout, I'd probably think about joining it but, by the time I had made up my mind I would be past the entrance... If it went to the next roundabout, would it carry on in my direction using a safe course around the roundabout (unlikely)? Or would it simply end in a give-way sign at right angles to traffic flow, forcing me to stop and making my path to the correct lane for my exit dangerous because I would be starting so much slower (likely). Nah, I'll be "bloody minded" and ignore it, probably wasn't a cycle lane anyway and if it was, it'll be micturate poor design and dangerous.

If I'm in an unfamiliar area I will generally ignore cycle paths at the side of roads for exactly the reasons you give. They run out, they have daft give way restrictions, they suddenly veer off where you don't want to go, or they just finish. If I don't know the area, and it's a shared use path (spit) then I will have no idea of the number of wandering pedestrians likely to be on the path. The road is often, ultimately not only quicker, but often easier than taking a chance with an unfamiliar 'facility'.
Yes, I too am "bloody minded" and happy to be so too!


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colindash
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Re: Highways Agency and Waste of our money

Post by colindash »

Learnt a few things from my post –main one being what is obvious to me isn’t either obvious or desired by others. I will bear this in mind when writing to my County Councillor – so that’s a positive. Another thing I learnt, by listening to the relevant bits of replies and then observing a bit more closely, is one of the main problems in my area is lack of adequate signs. If you were unfamiliar with the area it’s not always clear what are cycle lanes and what are just footpaths, so I will bring this up with the Councillor as well. Another thing I’ve observed are the entry / exit points of some of our new cycle paths are easily missed. A cyclist could inadvertently end up travelling on the road and would have to dismount to get on the cycle path if their bike only had 23mm tyres (although it would be an easy bunny hop for those with more rubber and air).
It also has come across from replies that it appears to be the norm that cycle paths are badly signed and often end nowhere, and sadly this seems to be just accepted. Is there any co-ordination via Cycling UK (The Cyclists Champion) regarding getting these sorts of things improved? Or am I being just naively optimistic? Surely if each area had someone to get cycle path access and signage improved then we wouldn’t end up pessimistically dismissing a nice bit of safe tarmac – or at least we’d have an informed choice.
Finally – again driving to work on a lovely sunny morning - passed a group of 12 or so fully kitted out cyclists out for a day ride on a nicely done cycle path next to the main road. All bimbling along merrily, 2 or 3 abreast, chatting away at the start of their ride. The cycle path is well signed and smooth and clean – it links up their start point to their rural exit point and they go this way every Thursday. But cycling along the main road alongside them, avoiding debris and sucking in the diesel fumes, was one of their number – I know why he was there ! LOL
millimole
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Re: Highways Agency and Waste of our money

Post by millimole »

I've often thought there ought to be a 'kite mark' scheme for good quality paths & routes. An opportunity for CTC ?


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Tangled Metal
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Re: Highways Agency and Waste of our money

Post by Tangled Metal »

There ought to be a specification or minimum cycle path standard first.
Psamathe
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Re: Highways Agency and Waste of our money

Post by Psamathe »

Tangled Metal wrote:There ought to be a specification or minimum cycle path standard first.

Town nearby me they are going through a lot of new housing estate building and Highways seem to have decided to put in "cycle lanes" - which to them means putting a bit of white paint onto a road in the shape of an arrow pointing up to the pavement - pavement which might just be wide enough for one parent pushing a single child buggy to use with nothing coming the other way (two parents would have to walk in line not side by side). they do go to the trouble of lowering the kerb where they paint these arrows!

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mjr
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Re: Highways Agency and Waste of our money

Post by mjr »

Psamathe wrote:
Tangled Metal wrote:There ought to be a specification or minimum cycle path standard first.

Town nearby me they are going through a lot of new housing estate building and Highways seem to have decided to put in "cycle lanes" - which to them means putting a bit of white paint onto a road in the shape of an arrow pointing up to the pavement - pavement which might just be wide enough for one parent pushing a single child buggy to use with nothing coming the other way (two parents would have to walk in line not side by side). they do go to the trouble of lowering the kerb where they paint these arrows!

Please http://www.WriteToThem.com and pick the county councillor(s). Norfolk do know better than that and often do better than that - but maybe we've got all the good highways designers working over here in the west now ;-)

Think yourself lucky they go to the trouble of lowering the kerb - as you may know, I spent a while getting some in North Somerset fixed where the arrows pointed into high kerbs!
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