Highways Agency and Waste of our money

[Vorpal]

The various agencies also have a tendancy to say it's not their responsibility & send you off to someone else.

For example, a parallel cycle track along a major trunk road would be under the auspices of Highways England if you are in England, whilst the rail bed could be under the auspices of a local county council, borough, or district council, or unitary authority. Some may also be privately owned, and if it ends in a park, you could end up with multiple authorities to deal with.

That's where a group like Sustrans could be a useful ally, if you can get their interest. They deal with stuff like that all the time.

Don't let the various authorities give you the run around. Make a friend of someone in the local rights of way and / or mapping offices.

Good luck.

[Psamathe]

I have no experience of campaigning on issues raised by the OP.

However, I do have good experience of carefully worded FOI requests, which I have found can be used to make a significant point to bodies concerned. I've found that phrasing your FOI request to get a "that aspect has not been considered" or some other response explicitly stating "it has not been considered".

For example, I object to Surface Dressing (in many situations) so as part of registering my objection I requested "I thus wish to submit a Freedom of Information request for reports, documentation, minutes of meetings, correspondence, etc. where and/or showing how the needs of cyclists were considered by Norfolk County Council Highways Department when selecting which roads were to be re-surfaced through "surface dressing" and in the scheduling of those works for works carried out in 2016.". Seemed a reasonable request (to me) and I got a standard answer back justifying their Surface Dressing and not providing me any of what I asked for, so I appealed their response, they got an independent legal body to review and then I got the response I was expecting (and thus making my point to the Council): "Having investigated the matter, I can conclude that there are no reports, documentation, minutes of meetings, correspondence, etc. where and/or showing how the needs of cyclists were considered by the Council" (i.e. they did not consider cyclists).

Probably didn't achieve anything beyond making them think twice but made my point to the Council as my appeal (that they did not address the requested information) was upheld so the final "we didn't consider them" would have made a point to the Council.

And they'll be the same question for 2017 and then they'll be the aspect about "failure to learn from past mistakes".

Ian

[mjr]

I have written to a local cycle campaigner previously with no response - I will try again.

Please don't write to one particular campaigner. They're likely to be overloaded and a letter with loads of questions is likely to go on the back burner. Also, don't write to a cycle campaign group because that'll often just go to a random member and you'll be relying on them to remember to pass it physically to the right person or take it to a meeting or to scan it and email it.

Email is better, as that's quicker to pass around. Going to their meeting would usually be best. If you can't, then try phoning, or many groups have forums or social network groups or use cyclescape or something else online.

The MP and County Councillor do respond but don't really know what I'm talking about.

So if they're responding and seeming like they want to know more, then maybe drawing maps or putting them in contact with people at Sustrans or showing them things like http://cycletraffic-elearning.com/ would be productive.

Going back to the other original questions:

Who advises those with the dosh ? Does Cycling UK or Sustrans have any say ? - I would say not judging by what I 've seen.

Yes, it's rare that CUK or Sustrans or CycleNation get much say. Who advises the council or Highways England is often whoever they hire and sadly that is often the motorists' friends like Mott MacDonald or WSP using models that ignore cycling (and walking) except in how giving them priority reduces motoring capacity. Occasionally they hire someone like Phil Jones Associates who knows more, but that's rare. It's a consultant lottery.

Is it up to me to draw some maps for my MP and Local Councillor or am I just wasting my time ? I'm not motivated by any personal gain - after 50 odd years round here I can quite happily cycle round my local area all day and every day on lovely routes - I just want everybody else to have that opportunity. All responses welcome - thanks, Colin

Yes, it seems to be up to us. When we've had maps drawn by others - even Sustrans - they've been incomplete and incorrect and then once their funding contract is completed, no-one pushes it forwards and we're still waiting for stuff from maps drawn 10 years ago to be built.

Hopefully you can get some help from others to make the maps of what's needed. There's a guide and templates from Cycle Bath currently hosted by CUK at http://www.cyclinguk.org/guide/make-tub ... le-network

[MikeF]

Good point, but I think adding a track alongside a trunk route is a good idea anyway. Marginal cost, and even if it's not particularly useful now, in the future there might be housing developments built, or other cycle routes that could link to it. Seems to me that a lot of the problems with cycling infrastructure come from trying to shoehorn it onto existing roads, it should be standard practice to incorporate it into new schemes where the typical daft/dangerous compromises can be avoided. And £100 million? Peanuts isn't it, in the roads budget.

You're right. It's marginal cost and sets the right "thinking frame" for cycling. A fairly new "race track" has been built on the A26 near Crowborough and it's even been built with a pavement , but without a cycle facility. When cycling uphill it's one of the few places where I use the pavement and even that doesn't feel safe. (I've never seen a pedestrian!) I think it was East Sussex CC expenditure and not HA, but a decent cycle facility could have made good section of NCN21, whereas the existing route in this area has a very badly surfaced section and is tortuous.

So Highways England or County Councils shouldn't be deterred from spending money at marginal cost for providing decent cycling facilities wherever they can be built. The new section of the A21 being built near Tunbridge Wells appears to have a good cycling facility alongside it.

[Richard Fairhurst]

... I know of one route that was funded by the HA along those lines, although there are some other issues with that particular route that mean it doesn't currently fulfil its potential. ....(My emphasis)

Is the location secret? The bit I've highlighted sounds like a euphemism for "rubbish."

NCN 41, Evesham-Tewkesbury. The new path near Elmley Castle is pretty good; the lanes are much more pleasant than a path directly along the A46 would be; and at 15mi vs 13mi it's not a big difference in distance. The problem is the final bit nearing the outskirts of Tewkesbury, which is basically a field edge - designated (if I remember rightly) as a bridleway, so there's a legal right of bike access, but the surface isn't up to it. A real shame, as it would be a great route otherwise.

[colindash]

Thanks to all members who responded, I now have a clearer idea of what is required.I did write to a local campaigner(well emailed actually) but, as Vorpal suggested, he probably is too busy and I don't expect a response. I will write to my local county councillor and my MP and enclose a map of the two main proposals I have, I don't want to overwelm them with the tricky bits initially. I will suggest Sustrans to them, and copy the proposals for Sustrans to view. I will also suggest a bike ride to my county councillor - she has been quite good at getting some things done by the highways agency - but as ever they've cocked up the finished artcle and IMO some are not fit for purpose.
The old rail line and the footpath upgrade have been brought up at county level before but the rail line got boggged down with a railway preservation society pipe dream, and the footpath up grade was scrapped as a result of the 2010 general election ( that's what the county council blamed - they were on the losing side) That is all I intend to do at this stage - I have two full time jobs (one as a carer) and I can only give so much time to this - I can only hope the relevant parties can see the common sense in utilising an asset which we already have in place.
Finally - I've got to mention this, and I'm sure it'll cause some debate: I was in my car on the way to work this morning and went along the trunk road - yes, the one with the new 8 foot wide tarmac cycle path next to it. I passed a cyclist - he was in the road ( in the old dotted white line bit), he had just passed a turn into a disused road which would have taken him to the same destination. He didn't look stupid or drunk - he was on a full carbon bike with full lycra kit going at a good pace. Now apart from bloody mindedness why was he doing this ? If I don't get anywhere with my quest for decent cycle routes I won't worry too much - the muppets round here will probaly leave them empty and continue to battle with juggernauts. Colin

[Psamathe]

... I will write to my local county councillor.....

Check on your County Council web site for his contact details. My own local council web site also gives phone numbers and I work on the basis that if somebody publishes their phone number online then they are happy for you to call (mine publishes both his home and mobile numbers on the official council web site under the "contact your councillor", though I avoid using his mobile). When I call I always start "I'm a constituent calling about <xxx>. Is it convenient to talk now as I can call back later if that's easier?". I find by talking to them you can pass more relevant information as they have the option to ask questions and you can almost double check they have the point and I always make sure there is some follow-up e.g. ask what happens now, what can they do, who can they pursue the matter with, what sort of timescales should I wait before following-up, etc. (all depends on the issue, how the councillor responds/reacts, etc.).

You can always then follow-up with an e-mail e.g. along the lines "Thank you for the time you spent discussing <xxx> with me on the phone yesterday." and raise any additional points or "I should emphasise ...".

Ian

[thirdcrank]

Richard Fairhurst

Thanks for that. By coincidence, one of my sons lived in Tewkesbury for several years and I was down there fairly often but he's back here in Leeds now so I'm unlikely to have the chance to have a look.

More generally, I get the impression that not everybody understands the division of responsibilities between Highways England (the Highway Agency, as was) and local highway authorities.

Highways England operates, maintains and improves England’s motorways and major A roads.

https://www.gov.uk/government/organisat ... ys-england

Anything they do in connection with cycling will only be ancillary to that (and a miniscule part of it.)

[AlaninWales]

Finally - I've got to mention this, and I'm sure it'll cause some debate: I was in my car on the way to work this morning and went along the trunk road - yes, the one with the new 8 foot wide tarmac cycle path next to it. I passed a cyclist - he was in the road ( in the old dotted white line bit), he had just passed a turn into a disused road which would have taken him to the same destination. He didn't look stupid or drunk - he was on a full carbon bike with full lycra kit going at a good pace. Now apart from bloody mindedness why was he doing this ? If I don't get anywhere with my quest for decent cycle routes I won't worry too much - the muppets round here will probably leave them empty and continue to battle with juggernauts. Colin

Likely because he would have had to have local knowledge (or studied a detailed, up to date and reliable map) to know that the "disused road which would have taken him to the same destination." When cycling I am used to signed diversions which take me nowhere near my destination (and frequently end badly) and I will certainly not be taking some random road to see where it goes, unless I am specifically 'going nowhere' (a.k.a. exploring). Why anyone would expect a random cyclist to do so puzzles me.

[colindash]

Likely because he would have had to have local knowledge (or studied a detailed, up to date and reliable map) to know that the "disused road which would have taken him to the same destination." When cycling I am used to signed diversions which take me nowhere near my destination (and frequently end badly) and I will certainly not be taking some random road to see where it goes, unless I am specifically 'going nowhere' (a.k.a. exploring). Why anyone would expect a random cyclist to do so puzzles me.

It wasn't really the missed turn that baffled me - as you point out he may have lacked local knowledge, although at that time in the morning carrying no bags and coming from a one road in/one road out town I presumed he was local.
The thing that struck me was he was heading along inside the old white line at the side of the road (amongst all the road debris ) whilst just on his left was an 8 foot wide strip of pristine tarmac.
If anyone thinks that is any way justifiable I'll gladly sign out of this forum - never to return.

[mjr]

The thing that struck me was he was heading along inside the old white line at the side of the road (amongst all the road debris ) whilst just on his left was an 8 foot wide strip of pristine tarmac.
If anyone thinks that is any way justifiable I'll gladly sign out of this forum - never to return.

At the risk of provoking your flounce, I'll say that he may still need local knowledge to know that cycle track was an 8 foot wide strip of pristine tarmac for its whole length and connected to where he wanted to go. I usually prefer riding cycleways where available but even I feel I've sometimes been tricked onto stuff that's degenerated into narrow washboard tarmac and given a choice between a drop off a high kerb (bad on a road bike) or going round a blind corner into a dead-end road away from the main road I left, like at http://www.instantstreetview.com/@52.95 ... .37p,1.33z (Lincolnshire is bad for that sort of stuff).

Maybe not justifiable exactly, but understandable when most councils build rubbish cycleways and do stuff they don't dare do to carriageways?

[colindash]

OK - I Give up.
This forum's obviously not for me, I'll go back to reading my Cycling Quarterlys.

[Vorpal]

The thing that struck me was he was heading along inside the old white line at the side of the road (amongst all the road debris ) whilst just on his left was an 8 foot wide strip of pristine tarmac.
If anyone thinks that is any way justifiable I'll gladly sign out of this forum - never to return.

I'm not honestly too clear what this means. What was the 8 foot wide strip of pristine tarmac ? Like others seem to have done I initially thought that you were saying he should have turned off.

[Richard Fairhurst]

If anyone thinks that is any way justifiable I'll gladly sign out of this forum - never to return.

At the risk of stating the bleeding obvious - discussion forums are for discussion, and discussion generally requires that people have differing views. If you won't read a site where people have differing views from you, I fear the internet may not be for you. But, genuinely, good luck with your cycle path campaign anyway.

[AlaninWales]

The thing that struck me was he was heading along inside the old white line at the side of the road (amongst all the road debris ) whilst just on his left was an 8 foot wide strip of pristine tarmac.
If anyone thinks that is any way justifiable I'll gladly sign out of this forum - never to return.

I'm not honestly too clear what this means. What was the 8 foot wide strip of pristine tarmac ? Like others seem to have done I initially thought that you were saying he should have turned off.

Apparently he should have realised that the dedicated road was going his way then stopped, got out of his car and pushed it across the boundary. Oh sorry, he was on a bike so definitely should have risked being diverted to an unknown destination, stopped and lifted his bike off the car-only lane!