FOTPT Appeal

Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 18748
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: FOTPT Appeal

Postby Vorpal » 6 Aug 2017, 9:39pm

I am no fan of barriers. They are my biggest gripe about British infrastructure. But that doesn't mean that I think something like the Trans Pennine Trail isn't a worthy venture.

I have felt that way about a number of routes in the UK. I was a member of the Friends of Flitch Way, and I helped with tidying and cutting back stuff on volunteer days.

I also campaigned against the barriers.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom

Pete Owens
Posts: 1933
Joined: 7 Jul 2008, 12:52am

Re: FOTPT Appeal

Postby Pete Owens » 7 Aug 2017, 12:44am

pete75 wrote:
reohn2 wrote:I don't think being "wussy" should be a problem,if people can't cycle or walk a path such as the TPT in ordinary clothes on ordinary bikes or in everyday footware there's something badly wrong with it and IMHO there is something badly wrong with it in it's current state and the lack of funding made available for it's upkeep.


Define ordinary clothes and footwear. It means many different things to many different people. What is everyday footwear?

The clothes that I am intending to turn up to work for in the morning.

We don't have a strict dress code, but turning up for work plastered in mud would be frowned upon. Also I don't wan't to spend half the evening every day cleaning the muck off my bike. And we are not just taking about riding in the rain here - those are the conditions after a period of dry weather. Basically the trail is impassible in the winter months.

For some people it's 4" heeled open toed shoes.

Indeed so - and that is what you would expect with half decent infrastructure:
http://www.copenhagencyclechic.com/
At this time of year I do wear open toed sandals.

"Wear stout shoes or boots. Although designed for walkers, some parts of the Trail are rough or muddy and you’ll need appropriate footwear.
Remember your waterproofs and warm clothing. The Trail climbs right over the Pennines and is consequently liable to rapid changes in weather even on warm, sunny days."

Sensible advice in my opinion.

OK so now we understand each other - the apologists for this c**p are not even aspiring to anything approaching basic transport infrastructure.

Remember we are not talking about some mountain bike adventure park here, but the NATIONAL CYCLE NETWORK - ie it should be the most high profile route in the towns it passes though - the spine of their local transport networks. It passes within a a few hundred yards of my house so it should be THE obvious choice of route for me whenever I travel to Liverpool or Manchester - which I can assure you that it isn't.

To get the idea of what the minimum expectation should be take a look at:
https://www.cyclestreets.net/location/58840/
This isn't some fancy dutch installation but a local route through a park in Warrington. Nothing special, but suitable for a low volume of year round cycle traffic for ordinary people wearing ordinary clothes on normal bikes.

karlt
Posts: 2244
Joined: 15 Jul 2011, 2:07pm

Re: FOTPT Appeal

Postby karlt » 7 Aug 2017, 7:08am

I've used the TPT to get to work; despite being virtually door to door it's three miles longer than the road route. And it means hosing the bike down at the end of the day. God alone knows how many more chains and cassettes I'd get through from the grit.

reohn2
Posts: 40711
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: FOTPT Appeal

Postby reohn2 » 7 Aug 2017, 9:06am

Pete75
Pete Owens has beaten me to it with an answer to your query about my post.
But to add,for the most part the TPT is well below any acceptable quality cycle route and it's a lack of cycle infrastructure funding that causes that,but to reiterate my post above.I'm of the opinion that to bring it up to any kind of acceptable standard any improvements should come out of taxes not charity,once we go down that route we'll only get what the cycling fraternity is willing to pay out in charity donations.
Cycling organisations IMO should be fighting for that funding and not accepting charity funding from government that goes to paying for top table salaries within those organisations instead of paying for that infrastructure.
-----------------------------------------------------------

pete75
Posts: 13696
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: FOTPT Appeal

Postby pete75 » 7 Aug 2017, 3:41pm

Pete Owens wrote:
pete75 wrote:
reohn2 wrote:I don't think being "wussy" should be a problem,if people can't cycle or walk a path such as the TPT in ordinary clothes on ordinary bikes or in everyday footware there's something badly wrong with it and IMHO there is something badly wrong with it in it's current state and the lack of funding made available for it's upkeep.


Define ordinary clothes and footwear. It means many different things to many different people. What is everyday footwear?

The clothes that I am intending to turn up to work for in the morning.

We don't have a strict dress code, but turning up for work plastered in mud would be frowned upon. Also I don't wan't to spend half the evening every day cleaning the muck off my bike. And we are not just taking about riding in the rain here - those are the conditions after a period of dry weather. Basically the trail is impassible in the winter months.

For some people it's 4" heeled open toed shoes.

Indeed so - and that is what you would expect with half decent infrastructure:
http://www.copenhagencyclechic.com/
At this time of year I do wear open toed sandals.

"Wear stout shoes or boots. Although designed for walkers, some parts of the Trail are rough or muddy and you’ll need appropriate footwear.
Remember your waterproofs and warm clothing. The Trail climbs right over the Pennines and is consequently liable to rapid changes in weather even on warm, sunny days."

Sensible advice in my opinion.

OK so now we understand each other - the apologists for this c**p are not even aspiring to anything approaching basic transport infrastructure.

Remember we are not talking about some mountain bike adventure park here, but the NATIONAL CYCLE NETWORK - ie it should be the most high profile route in the towns it passes though - the spine of their local transport networks. It passes within a a few hundred yards of my house so it should be THE obvious choice of route for me whenever I travel to Liverpool or Manchester - which I can assure you that it isn't.

To get the idea of what the minimum expectation should be take a look at:
https://www.cyclestreets.net/location/58840/
This isn't some fancy dutch installation but a local route through a park in Warrington. Nothing special, but suitable for a low volume of year round cycle traffic for ordinary people wearing ordinary clothes on normal bikes.


We're talking about a route that crosses the Pennines , fairly wild open moorland. What do you expect? Perhaps we're looking at it in different ways. I see it as a long distance route crossing , for England, relatively high land and open moorland. The advice they give walkers is sensible for this. You want it to be like a pathway through an urban park.

reohn2
Posts: 40711
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: FOTPT Appeal

Postby reohn2 » 7 Aug 2017, 4:45pm

Pete
Roads cross the Pennines, in fairly wild open moorland they're all tarmaced and fairly well maintained what do motorists expect?
They expect roads.
Should cyclists be afforded any less?
-----------------------------------------------------------

pete75
Posts: 13696
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: FOTPT Appeal

Postby pete75 » 8 Aug 2017, 3:32pm

reohn2 wrote:Pete
Roads cross the Pennines, in fairly wild open moorland they're all tarmaced and fairly well maintained what do motorists expect?
They expect roads.
Should cyclists be afforded any less?


The roads across the Pennines are open to cyclists so they are afforded exactly the same.
The TPT is, I believe, run by a charity and much of the work done by volunteers. They don't have the vast sums of money central and local government spend on the road network. They have done a good job within the limits of the funds they have and don't deserve the criticism they get from some here.

reohn2
Posts: 40711
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: FOTPT Appeal

Postby reohn2 » 8 Aug 2017, 4:32pm

pete75 wrote:
reohn2 wrote:Pete
Roads cross the Pennines, in fairly wild open moorland they're all tarmaced and fairly well maintained what do motorists expect?
They expect roads.
Should cyclists be afforded any less?


The roads across the Pennines are open to cyclists so they are afforded exactly the same.
The TPT is, I believe, run by a charity and much of the work done by volunteers. They don't have the vast sums of money central and local government spend on the road network. They have done a good job within the limits of the funds they have and don't deserve the criticism they get from some here.

My point is that the TPT should be funded by taxes and should be to high standard like the roads are.
I'm not criticising anyone but the way cycling infrastructure is built and maintained in this country and that its a sad indictment one of the richest countries in the world can't build and maintain its leisure facilities such as cyclepaths and footpaths better than it does,but relies on charities to do it. As I've posted so many times there's plenty of money sloshing around but it's all in the wrong hands.
I've met a few European touring cyclists on the TPT from Spain,Germany,Netherlands and France,heading for Liverpool on a Beatles homage,who after a few searching questions have told me reluctantly(because on the whole they're very polite)they've been appalled at the state of the trail,it doesn't bode well for attracting tourists.
-----------------------------------------------------------

Pete Owens
Posts: 1933
Joined: 7 Jul 2008, 12:52am

Re: FOTPT Appeal

Postby Pete Owens » 8 Aug 2017, 6:51pm

pete75 wrote:
Pete Owens wrote:OK so now we understand each other - the apologists for this c**p are not even aspiring to anything approaching basic transport infrastructure.

Remember we are not talking about some mountain bike adventure park here, but the NATIONAL CYCLE NETWORK - ie it should be the most high profile route in the towns it passes though - the spine of their local transport networks. It passes within a a few hundred yards of my house so it should be THE obvious choice of route for me whenever I travel to Liverpool or Manchester - which I can assure you that it isn't.

To get the idea of what the minimum expectation should be take a look at:
https://www.cyclestreets.net/location/58840/
This isn't some fancy dutch installation but a local route through a park in Warrington. Nothing special, but suitable for a low volume of year round cycle traffic for ordinary people wearing ordinary clothes on normal bikes.


We're talking about a route that crosses the Pennines , fairly wild open moorland.

Actually I am talking about the strategic cycle route supposedly connecting the largest conurbations in NW England running through mostly urban terrain and not getting above 10m in altitude, but I don't see how the altitude should be an excuse for poor construction.
What do you expect? Perhaps we're looking at it in different ways. I see it as a long distance route crossing , for England, relatively high land and open moorland.

It is perfectly possible to construct wide, smooth, lit tarmac long distance routes across the Pennines:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.6292056,-2.0358455,3a,75y,93.37h,108.31t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sdwM4tJ1fm5_pR3j1P-qr-Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

geocycle
Posts: 1845
Joined: 11 Jan 2007, 9:46am

Re: FOTPT Appeal

Postby geocycle » 8 Aug 2017, 8:18pm

There's a lack of realism in this thread. Like it or not most long distance trails are run by volunteers. Perhaps they shouldn't be but they deserve our support while the system gets changed. I don't buy the argument that volunteers are prolonging the problem. I have very different views on commuter routes in cities where support from local authorities should be expected. I've just ridden part of route68 near Alston, the surface was dreadful but I had huge fun!

reohn2
Posts: 40711
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: FOTPT Appeal

Postby reohn2 » 8 Aug 2017, 8:36pm

geocycle wrote:There's a lack of realism in this thread. Like it or not most long distance trails are run by volunteers. Perhaps they shouldn't be but they deserve our support while the system gets changed. I don't buy the argument that volunteers are prolonging the problem. I have very different views on commuter routes in cities where support from local authorities should be expected. I've just ridden part of route68 near Alston, the surface was dreadful but I had huge fun!

Why is it a lack of realism to expect such long distance cyclepath to be funded out of taxes?
I do believe if such paths continue to be funded by charities they will continue to be and will absolve government from from their duties toward it's citizens.
We are already seeing other services being manned by volunteers as taxes are reduced especially by those who can afford them most,taxes need to be increased if we want to continue living in a country with good services.Cyclepaths,footpaths and other leisure facilities are part of that IMHO and will always be a hotch potch of second and third class farcilities if they aren't.
-----------------------------------------------------------

geocycle
Posts: 1845
Joined: 11 Jan 2007, 9:46am

Re: FOTPT Appeal

Postby geocycle » 8 Aug 2017, 9:29pm

reohn2 wrote:
geocycle wrote:There's a lack of realism in this thread. Like it or not most long distance trails are run by volunteers. Perhaps they shouldn't be but they deserve our support while the system gets changed. I don't buy the argument that volunteers are prolonging the problem. I have very different views on commuter routes in cities where support from local authorities should be expected. I've just ridden part of route68 near Alston, the surface was dreadful but I had huge fun!

Why is it a lack of realism to expect such long distance cyclepath to be funded out of taxes?
I do believe if such paths continue to be funded by charities they will continue to be and will absolve government from from their duties toward it's citizens.
We are already seeing other services being manned by volunteers as taxes are reduced especially by those who can afford them most,taxes need to be increased if we want to continue living in a country with good services.Cyclepaths,footpaths and other leisure facilities are part of that IMHO and will always be a hotch potch of second and third class farcilities if they aren't.

I don't disagree and I would much rather live in a Scandinavian style tax regime with properly funded public services. Maybe Mr Corbyn will change things but meanwhile I'm concerned people like the OP who are trying to do something for the community are getting criticised. Volunteers are deeply embedded in British society, without them we'd have no lifeboats, air ambulances or cancer care. Yes, this gives government an opt out but I don't see it changing any time soon.

reohn2
Posts: 40711
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: FOTPT Appeal

Postby reohn2 » 8 Aug 2017, 10:55pm

geocycle wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
geocycle wrote:There's a lack of realism in this thread. Like it or not most long distance trails are run by volunteers. Perhaps they shouldn't be but they deserve our support while the system gets changed. I don't buy the argument that volunteers are prolonging the problem. I have very different views on commuter routes in cities where support from local authorities should be expected. I've just ridden part of route68 near Alston, the surface was dreadful but I had huge fun!

Why is it a lack of realism to expect such long distance cyclepath to be funded out of taxes?
I do believe if such paths continue to be funded by charities they will continue to be and will absolve government from from their duties toward it's citizens.
We are already seeing other services being manned by volunteers as taxes are reduced especially by those who can afford them most,taxes need to be increased if we want to continue living in a country with good services.Cyclepaths,footpaths and other leisure facilities are part of that IMHO and will always be a hotch potch of second and third class farcilities if they aren't.

I don't disagree and I would much rather live in a Scandinavian style tax regime with properly funded public services. Maybe Mr Corbyn will change things but meanwhile I'm concerned people like the OP who are trying to do something for the community are getting criticised. Volunteers are deeply embedded in British society, without them we'd have no lifeboats, air ambulances or cancer care. Yes, this gives government an opt out but I don't see it changing any time soon.

Do you think The RNLI,Air Ambulance or cancer care should be funded by charitable donation?
We're in a pretty bad state as a nation when this is the state of affairs we find ourselves in.
The consumer society has won,over sense and community IMHO,almost every man and woman Jack and Jackess walks around with £500 iPhones(other variations of the same are available)permanently stuck to their ears or staring into them at the latest social media post,or drive around in £30 & 40k cars,and Live in gated communities,spend many ££££'s on jewellery,etc,etc and believe this is the essense of life,when others they pass on the street daily suffer as a result of their excess,it was ever thus,but needn't be......
-----------------------------------------------------------

wildnorthlands
Posts: 46
Joined: 15 May 2007, 12:09pm
Location: Sheffield

Re: FOTPT Appeal

Postby wildnorthlands » 9 Aug 2017, 11:20am

And on that topic, the Trans Pennine Trail national office is seeking views of Trail users as part of their 2017 Visitor Survey.

Please visit http://consult.barnsley.gov.uk/portal/development/sar/tptvisitorsurvey2017

Please forward this email to any other interested parties who may wish to complete the survey or help promote. The survey closes on 22nd September 2017.

Simon

pete75
Posts: 13696
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: FOTPT Appeal

Postby pete75 » 9 Aug 2017, 8:06pm

reohn2 wrote:Do you think The RNLI ....... should be funded by charitable donation?


Yes I do. It means it's avoided being ****** over by government ministers trying to save money.