Illegal 'Cyclists Dismount' signs?

[reohn2]

I've don't understand why cattle grids are archaic,they control livestock and allow traffic flow,though as I mentioned up thread the rails/bars could be coated with a non slip section in the middle so car wheels wouldn't wear it off,such coating would also help motorcyclists too.

It's archaic because controlling cattle by digging holes in the ground seems so backwards, even since we have fences.

Q,How do we stop livestock wandering whilst allowing vehicles to pass without impediment.
A,Cattle Grids,something livestock can't cross but vehicles can.
That's not backward that's an effective solution to the problem,surely?
OK there'll be small sections of society slightly inconvenienced,namely cyclists,equestrians and pedestrians,so a gate is provided,and an advisory notice posted to warn cyclists of the possible dangers of riding over the CG.
It seems sensible to me that if cyclists do ride over the CG they can't say they weren't warned,and they could use the gate provided if they don't.

The coating sounds like a good idea but I've never seen it

I've seen the coating but not on cattle grids.

I've no idea. Possibly they could jump the fences but I've never seen them at the gateless ones whose locations I'm sure of. On the OS map, that road is white, so it might not even be a right of way on horse.

Every CG Ive used has a provision for equestrians by wide five bar type gate,wide enough for a horse and cart,to the side.
If they were gated they would inconvenience far more people than they would help.Paulatic has hilighted the problem with gates,people leave them open.Another problem is they need more maintainence than CG,though Ill admit occassionally I do come across the od badly maintained CG that's a danger to cyclists butnthen there's the gate provided

[Bmblbzzz]

If the issue is Cyclists Dismount signs at CGs rather than CGs themselves, then I must say I can only think of one such. I would be in favour of removing such signs and making sure grids were well aligned with the road surface. Grid design is a factor too: spacing between bars and shape of bars. Generally, flat bars seem to be better than round ones, perhaps counterintuitively; perhaps because round ones in effect have a larger gap between bars.

[mjr]

I've don't understand why cattle grids are archaic,they control livestock and allow traffic flow,though as I mentioned up thread the rails/bars could be coated with a non slip section in the middle so car wheels wouldn't wear it off,such coating would also help motorcyclists too.

It's archaic because controlling cattle by digging holes in the ground seems so backwards, even since we have fences.

Q,How do we stop livestock wandering whilst allowing vehicles to pass without impediment.
A,Cattle Grids,something livestock can't cross but vehicles can.
That's not backward that's an effective solution to the problem,surely?

Except not all vehicles can cross them safely, else this topic wouldn't have arisen!

OK there'll be small sections of society slightly inconvenienced,namely cyclists,equestrians and pedestrians,so a gate is provided,and an advisory notice posted to warn cyclists of the possible dangers of riding over the CG.
It seems sensible to me that if cyclists do ride over the CG they can't say they weren't warned,and they could used the gate provided.

Except the advisory notice in the OP example did nothing to warn cyclists of the possible dangers, but advised them to dismount - and potentially fall through while trying to walk from bar to bar over the grid while carrying a bike, which I have seen cyclists attempt in preference to trying to get a bike through a side gate!

Every CG Ive used has a provision for equestrians by wide five bar type gate,wide enough for a horse and cart,to the side.
If they were gated they would inconvenience far more people than they would help.

That's your view but not one I share. The CGs I remember with wide five bar type gates next to them are mostly ones where the landowner drives cattle between the fields with the grid between frequently enough that boarding over the grid would be a nuisance - nothing to do with horses and carts.

Most of the troublesome grids I remember aren't on Streetview (they're on restricted byways or other permissive routes more than roads) but here's one that is http://www.instantstreetview.com/@52.91 ... 3.9p,2.12z - but it's by no means the worst one and no dismount sign (or any other sign except the go-away).

[mjr]

I think you're missing the idea of common land, mjr.

Possibly. The commons nearest me (West Winch, North Runcton, Setchey) are all gated. I'm not sure where the nearest common with a grid would be. Grids seem like something used by landowners hostile to people crossing their land and who would be quite happy if it stopped.

West Winch has some particularly funky gates on a foot-only entrance which you just push the tops apart wide enough to pass over on a small ramp, then they swing back closed around the ramp. There must be some clever weighted hinge beneath the ramp. Maybe it would be too difficult to make such a gate wide enough for tricycle access.

[thirdcrank]

Sooner or later, drivers racing about on unfenced roads killing livestock will lead to cattle grids being redundant, in that fields will all either be fenced or empty of livestock. Large areas of Yorkshire have seen roadside barbed-wire erected in my lifetime.

People will wonder what JS Bach was on about.
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PS A little bird tells me they were wondering what I was on about when I referred to what JS Bach was on about It's his cantata Sheep may safely graze. Sorry

[meic]

A quick google finds two pedestrians getting killed by vehicles because they were trapped in cattlegrids and one cyclist seriously brain damaged by falling on one.
So they do have risks attached to them, how does it compare to the benefits.

[reohn2]

Except not all vehicles can cross them safely, else this topic wouldn't have arisen!

But a gate is provided for those that can't,whereas in your world you'd inconvenience every user of that road by making them all use a gate

Except the advisory notice in the OP example did nothing to warn cyclists of the possible dangers, but advised them to dismount - and potentially fall through while trying to walk from bar to bar over the grid while carrying a bike, which I have seen cyclists attempt in preference to trying to get a bike through a side gate!

More fule them,the warning is there,a gate is provided.
What do you suggest as an alternative?

That's your view but not one I share. The CGs I remember with wide five bar type gates next to them are mostly ones where the landowner drives cattle between the fields with the grid between frequently enough that boarding over the grid would be a nuisance - nothing to do with horses and carts.

I didn't say they were for the exclusive used of horse and carts only that they were wide enough for them to pass through.

Most of the troublesome grids I remember aren't on Streetview (they're on restricted byways or other permissive routes more than roads) but here's one that is http://www.instantstreetview.com/@52.91 ... 3.9p,2.12z - but it's by no means the worst one and no dismount sign (or any other sign except the go-away).

There's a black and white sign posted just to the left,which says "no unauthorised traffic",meaning its a private road.

[bikepacker]

I live on a common that is now ungated and has no grids any grazing is done with temporary electric fencing.

The public enquiry previously stated, went on for two weeks of which I and other CTC members only attended for three days to give our evidence. In that time the death of one cyclist in Wales was cited plus many cyclist injuries. You have to remember that not all cyclists crossing these grids are experienced as some of you. Some even prone to panic whilst on the grid causing themselves to lose balance.

Horse rider and motor cyclist objectors had cited other cases of deaths and injuries. Other objectors actually included at least one farmer. The farmer I talked to said grids were almost useless as stock control because many sheep quickly learn how to roll over them.

My information at the time was that any new cattle grids had to comply with ISO9002 which states that there has to be a tarmac bypass capable of taking the largest vehicle to use the particular road. I believe the quality standard also has to be adhered to when making repairs or modifications to existing grids.

[reohn2]

A quick google finds two pedestrians getting killed by vehicles because they were trapped in cattlegrids and one cyclist seriously brain damaged by falling on one.
So they do have risks attached to them, how does it compare to the benefits.

Life is a risk,minimising risk is good thing,but it can only ever be minimised not eliminated entirely.
Think of the most benign situation and someone somewhere will have died doing it.

[mjr]

Except not all vehicles can cross them safely, else this topic wouldn't have arisen!

But a gate is provided for those that can't,whereas in your world you'd inconvenience every user of that road by making them all use a gate

Or use other means to control the cattle. Gates are only one of a wide range of less injurious options... but no, never mind other people's injuries as long as r2 inconvenienced!

Except the advisory notice in the OP example did nothing to warn cyclists of the possible dangers, but advised them to dismount - and potentially fall through while trying to walk from bar to bar over the grid while carrying a bike, which I have seen cyclists attempt in preference to trying to get a bike through a side gate!

More fule them,the warning is there,a gate is provided.
What do you suggest as an alternative?

"Cyclists may use side gate"? But it would be better to make the grid safe.

Most of the troublesome grids I remember aren't on Streetview (they're on restricted byways or other permissive routes more than roads) but here's one that is http://www.instantstreetview.com/@52.91 ... 3.9p,2.12z - but it's by no means the worst one and no dismount sign (or any other sign except the go-away).

There's a black and white sign posted just to the left,which says "no unauthorised traffic",meaning its a private road.

It's just an example of a design which is found elsewhere on the Earl of Leicester's estate out of range of streetview but including restricted byways, shown here to disprove the implied claim that all grids have gates alongside.

[reohn2]

Bikepacker
Thanks for the infomation.
I dont know about sheep rolling over CGs but the mind eye paints a humourous picture .
As for cyclists deaths and injury,if in doubt use the gate provided would be good advice for anyone using existing CGs.

[Paulatic]

Sooner or later, drivers racing about on unfenced roads killing livestock will lead to cattle grids being redundant, in that fields will all either be fenced or empty of livestock. Large areas of Yorkshire have seen roadside barbed-wire erected in my lifetime.

People will wonder what JS Bach was on about.

I can recall most of the NYorks moors being unfenced when I was young. All main roads now fenced in because of the death toll of sheep.
The thing that strikes me is how quickly weed species especially ragwort have populated the roadsides. Along with good crops of thistles etc. Totally changed the nature of the moors.

[reohn2]

Except not all vehicles can cross them safely, else this topic wouldn't have arisen!

But a gate is provided for those that can't,whereas in your world you'd inconvenience every user of that road by making them all use a gate

Or use other means to control the cattle. Gates are only one of a wide range of less injurious options... but no, never mind other people's injuries as long as r2 inconvenienced!

Youre becoming unnecessarily rude.
You may have forgotten but I am a cyclist

"Cyclists may use side gate"? But it would be better to make the grid safe

.
By using the gate provided?

It's just an example of a design which is found elsewhere on the Earl of Leicester's estate out of range of streetview but including restricted byways, shown here to disprove the implied claim that all grids have gates alongside.

All gates on pubic roads do,see Bikepacker's post above,
Those gates are on private land,and whilst I agree it would be better for all concerned if they were built to public standard,there'll no doubt be a loophole the Earl can crawl through to save a few shillings

[Bmblbzzz]

I think you're missing the idea of common land, mjr.

Possibly. The commons nearest me (West Winch, North Runcton, Setchey) are all gated. I'm not sure where the nearest common with a grid would be. Grids seem like something used by landowners hostile to people crossing their land and who would be quite happy if it stopped.

West Winch has some particularly funky gates on a foot-only entrance which you just push the tops apart wide enough to pass over on a small ramp, then they swing back closed around the ramp. There must be some clever weighted hinge beneath the ramp. Maybe it would be too difficult to make such a gate wide enough for tricycle access.

All the commons I've ever seen have cattle grids. I don't know how long grids have been in use (I expect most of them date from the mid-20th c and Wikipedia says

The modern cattle guard for roads used by automobiles is said to have been independently invented a number of times on the Great Plains of the United States around 1905–1915. Before that period a similar device for railroads was in use at least as early as 1836; from pre-Roman times a stone stile had been used in England.[2] An article in Texas Monthly claims that the "first recorded use of a cattle guard for nonrail traffic" occurred in 1881 in Archer County, Texas, on the stagecoach road between Archer City and Henrietta.[3]

) but common road names such as Chaingate Lane indicate gate use in those locations historically. The only road I know with gates (near Leamington Spa) is actually over private not common fields. However, gates are perfectly compatible with common land at the entrance to that land; my comment referred to fences, which you'd mentioned. Fencing along the roads where they pass over common land clearly reduces the common-ness of that land; the cattle are no longer free to wander.

Some of the roads with cattle grids are pretty busy - most of the New Forest is a good example - and I doubt gates would be practical for this reason. They'd probably end up getting left open and serving no purpose whatsoever.

I reckon a photo or streetview of this clever gate at West Winch common would be interesting.

[Bmblbzzz]

There are two cattle grids on the Bristol-Bath Railway Path where it passes over Siston Common. They both have five-bar gates alongside as well as little, rather awkward, bypasses - more for pedestrians I think than cyclists. Although, comparing with many Sustrans* gates, I'm not sure. At the Warmley end, the gate got broken somehow earlier this year and so there is simply a grid with a wide tarmac area next to it. A good example of a grid serving no purpose. In fact, it's potentially more dangerous for cyclists than before, as the edge where the gate was now has a concrete lip a couple of inches high; previously this was up against a fence. When it will be replaced, if ever, and what with, I don't know; it can't exactly be high priority. I don't recall ever seeing grazing on Siston Common but obviously the right exists.

*This one is not Sustrans, I think it's the responsibility of S. Glos.