You can forget about your Dutch-style cycling facilities

[Bmblbzzz]

Cycling didn't die out of course, but remains stuck at a vestigial level, where there's not enough of it going on to justify the construction of a quality of infrastructure that might make it an attractive alternative to driving - except in places where driving is totally impracticable.

Thank you Private Fraser, but I respectfully disagree with the implicit assertion that we need lots of people swimming across a river to justify building bridges.

Surely that's "justify" to the government.

[Bmblbzzz]

The problem as I see it and CJ alludes to it his post,is that we(UK society)aren't making motoring impractical in areas where it should be made impractical,namely town and city centres.
I've blown this trumpet on the various pollution threads over the years,stop motoring where its doing the most harm and people will find alternatives,one of those will be cycling along with public transport.
And more people will cycle when they find a viable,safe and practical solution to their tranport needs,they won't do that if the car is available,convenient and unfettered IMO,and part of that is fear of the unfettered and convenient motors along with no alternative but to share space with those frightening vehicles.

Yep.

[Bmblbzzz]

Report by the Centre for London:

The question is how do you incentivise people to give up their vehicles - especially in outer London where it is still the most dominant transport mode?
...
There are also carrots in the report to get people out of their vehicles - incentives like recommendations for Oyster and contactless to be incorporated in car clubs and cycle hire.
And a cash back scheme for cars that will have to be scrapped due to ultra low emission zone - to be introduced in 2019.
But there are also sticks. The report wants to reduce residential parking spaces and reduce the residential discount for the congestion charge.
It wants ride hailing services properly managed including minicabs having to pay for the congestion charge.
Also road-pricing again appears - where motorists would have to pay per mile. The mayor has mentioned this in his transport strategy but is there the political will to deliver it?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-41566498

It describes a clear hierarchy which would see road space reallocated to deliver adequate pedestrian space, new segregated cycle lanes and priority bus lanes – plus “consideration of where emerging shared mobility services sit in this hierarchy.”

Great emphasis is placed on reclaiming residential car parking space. Escalating charges for more polluting vehicles are recommended, as are incentives for households to give up their permits. It adds: “Using the kerb space hierarchies, boroughs should develop a robust cycle parking strategy including reallocation of kerb space to cycle parking.”
...
The report also suggests the introduction of a pre-pay road user pricing system. It says of this: “The scheme needs to reflect the internal and external costs and environmental impacts of journeys, while being fair, and easy to understand and administer.”

Responding to the findings, Val Shawcross, Deputy Mayor for Transport at City Hall, said:

“As the report recommends, it is essential that we encourage more people to cycle and walk as part of their everyday lives, and use public transport as an alternative to car use.

“We have some of the most ambitious plans to reduce dangerous emissions of any city in the world, and we will continue to keep London’s existing and planned road charging schemes under review, ensuring they deliver the best outcomes for our city over the coming years.”

http://road.cc/content/news/230631-city ... or-traffic

[Steady rider]

https://www.sustrans.org.uk/news/cyclin ... and-cities
you may have already mentioned this, a link to the full reports would be welcome.

[Bmblbzzz]

https://www.centreforlondon.org/publica ... d_streets/

[Steady rider]

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov. ... 006-09.pdf

[CJ]

Thank you Private Fraser, but I respectfully disagree with the implicit assertion that we need lots of people swimming across a river to justify building bridges.

We don't need that to justify it to ME - or to most other cyclists. But we are not the people who must be persuaded to build it.

[CJ]

Some cycling campaigners would have you believe that there's nothing special about the Netherlands, nothing they've done that we couldn't easily copy.

And what's wrong with that? Copying what they've done would be fairly easy - but increasing cycling to their levels still wouldn't be easy because we're starting from a rather different position.

In planning and engineering terms, copying the Dutch is easy. But without political will, the planners don't plan and the engineers don't build it. And Britain unfortunately lacks the political will. Except in a few special places. And there is very little we can do about that, other than attempt to stop them mis-spending the pittance they do sometimes dribble our way, on so-called cycling 'facilities', that actually make this a LESS convenient way of getting places!

[mjr]

Thank you Private Fraser, but I respectfully disagree with the implicit assertion that we need lots of people swimming across a river to justify building bridges.

We don't need that to justify it to ME - or to most other cyclists. But we are not the people who must be persuaded to build it.

Indeed, but nor must we accept that theory of justification from politicians. It's generally not applied to other modes of transport, where provision is based on often-optimistic projections rather than current use.

[fatboy]

As a near daily user of Stevenage cycle paths and following discussions at Wednesday night CTC I can provide a comment or three!

1. The cycle paths are good, not too glass strewn (Harlow was much worse) but do have a strange parallel feel about them
2. You have to know your way to not get horribly lost
3. The roads are considered good (Dual carriageway etc) however hearing the every morning moan about traffic life isn't so great in paradise!
4. Stevenage as a town is very working class who (perhaps stereotypically) see a car as "having arrived" and bike old fashioned. I don't think that it's too controversial to say that cycling is quite middle classes

So I don't think that Stevenage is such a simple case for dismissing cycle lanes however given its perceived lack of success the case is weakened certainly.

[The utility cyclist]

As a near daily user of Stevenage cycle paths and following discussions at Wednesday night CTC I can provide a comment or three!

1. The cycle paths are good, not too glass strewn (Harlow was much worse) but do have a strange parallel feel about them
2. You have to know your way to not get horribly lost
3. The roads are considered good (Dual carriageway etc) however hearing the every morning moan about traffic life isn't so great in paradise!
4. Stevenage as a town is very working class who (perhaps stereotypically) see a car as "having arrived" and bike old fashioned. I don't think that it's too controversial to say that cycling is quite middle classes

So I don't think that Stevenage is such a simple case for dismissing cycle lanes however given its perceived lack of success the case is weakened certainly.

Hardly frequent the lanes when I go into St.evenage, however several points you missed.

They meander, the roads are pretty much in nice straight lines, it's less easy to cycle to get to places than it is to drive. Have you
They have in places quite steep inclines, especially coming out of the underpasses or turning points which means unless you have a really low bottom gear/strong rider they are a bugger to get up at times.
people wander onto the cycling part frequently, especially at school kicking out times.
the underpasses, a less inviting place to want to cycle through you would not find.

The other problem is that once off the main cycle tracks there's nothing, so you end up having to cycle around the long way through the estates putting up with drivers close passing you, speeding and all the usual BS.

my home city of Hull has a higher modal share for cycling than Stevenage, it most definitely is working class and it has next to zero off road cycling infra, none that are really of any use/safe.