Government launches urgent review into cycle safety

[landsurfer]

"MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters."

Without brakes i surmise .....

[mjr]

"MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters."

Without brakes i surmise .....

My main one currently has a hub braked front and a coaster brake rear. In its home country, it's sold with only the coaster brake.

My second one has two single pivot calipers and while they meet the legal requirement of effectiveness, they're on steel rims and I suspect a single coaster brake would be stronger!

[thirdcrank]

FWIW, I don't see the Lavinia Woodward case as relevant here. Apart from anything else, I think it's just the news value of posh totty spared jail.

A much more disturbing case and one that's central to everything we are discussing is this road rage assault on a teacher. I don't know any details other than what's in this mornings news, but violence like this should attract exemplary punishment, especially as school run road rage isn't rare.

http://www.itv.com/news/2017-09-25/surr ... et-jailed/

IMO we are in a stronger position to protest about this type of thing if we don't try to make excuses for somebody like Charlie Alliston

[mjr]

Almost no one is making excuses for Alliston.

IMO we would be in a stronger position to protest about that kind of thing if we don't join in with the likes of Norman's bike bashing.

[PDQ Mobile]

I think you're reading the bit for mopeds

Yes I see now.
The relevant sentence for pedal cycles is
Page 37(a)
"Must have an efficient brake".
In singular.

So the whole depends upon the interpretation of the word "efficient" then?

There is no question in my mind that a front brake is more efficient than a rear and by a very large margin.
I guess in Norfolk it's a possibilty but where I live a rear brake alone will hardly stop a bike at all on the steepest of the hills.1in5 jobbies! Merely skid.

So IMHO a rear brake only does not fulfil the "efficient" criteria.

[mjr]

So the whole depends upon the interpretation of the word "efficient" then?

Yep and while I agree that a front brake will always beat a rear and I wouldn't want to rely on only a back brake for a 1 in 5 downhill, your opinion of efficient is not the legal standard. I think there's some case law but I can't find the summary right now. I think it only covered PCUR bikes (so UK bikes, basically) and not any single-braked bikes allowed here under the UN treaty, but basically any brake capable of locking up the wheel without special tricks is legally regarded as efficient here as long as it doesn't do it by pushing on the tyre.

[PDQ Mobile]

I understand, but I must say that a brake not capable of stopping a bicycle reasonably well on a steep hill can't really be described as efficient, can it??

My opinion is irrelevant, I know.

[mjr]

I understand, but I must say that a brake not capable of stopping a bicycle reasonably well on a steep hill can't really be described as efficient, can it??

I don't see why it matters how it performs on a steep hill unless you ride down one. After all, even a brake that's usually efficient enough to stop on a 1 in 4 might not be once you add more luggage to the bike and taking it to the extreme, no brake's going to stop any bike down the steepest roads without crashing it, but that doesn't mean all brakes are inefficient.

I guess in Norfolk it's a possibilty but where I live a rear brake alone will hardly stop a bike at all on the steepest of the hills.1in5 jobbies! Merely skid.

Oh and I'm now tempted to go try stop a bike with the rear brake on a 1 in 5, but it'll have to wait until I go travelling because while Norfolk isn't as flat as you might think, it is still a chevron-free map.

[meic]

At least, on the whole, riders do know what their brakes can and can not do and act accordingly.
There are two hills that I know are too challenging for my braking ability. One I just walk down, the other I ride down but I start the descent from a standstill.
My brakes are not especially bad but the hills are.

[thirdcrank]

I think it's fair to say that modern brakes are considerably better than those of only a few years ago. I'm open to correction but I fancy that that for anybody who has persevered with something like single-pivot sidepulls or MAFAC Racers, or a returner to cycling after a break of say 25 years, only fixed wheel and coaster brakes would be unchanged from what they were used to. Roller lever brakes on steel rims are laugh-in territory, but ok for curates and the like pootling round the flat lands of East Yorks etc.

I can't see much to be gained by publicising the info that a lot of older bikes have poor brakes.

[meic]

I can't see much to be gained by publicising the info that a lot of older bikes have poor brakes.

In the world of motor vehicles the MOT test is supposed to asses the functioning of the brakes in an age sympathetic way. Also many will be surprised at just how weak a brake will still pass the MOT, most modern brakes will pass by a couple of times what is needed.

Add to that that vehicles over forty are no longer going to need to be tested at all in future.

[Psamathe]

I think you're reading the bit for mopeds

Yes I see now.
The relevant sentence for pedal cycles is
Page 37(a)
"Must have an efficient brake".
In singular.

So the whole depends upon the interpretation of the word "efficient" then?

There is no question in my mind that a front brake is more efficient than a rear and by a very large margin.
I guess in Norfolk it's a possibilty but where I live a rear brake alone will hardly stop a bike at all on the steepest of the hills.1in5 jobbies! Merely skid.

So IMHO a rear brake only does not fulfil the "efficient" criteria.

I don't see how you could guess at how efficient this brake is. To me does not say "efficient braking system" or "efficient brakes". As long as it has at least one brake that is efficient then that would comply with (my interpretation of) said regs (as quoted above).

Ian

[meic]

Unless we are expecting the review to decide that we are tearing up the Vienna convention it can be forgotten. It doesnt apply to most of the cyclists on the road who are actually bound by our laws which DO call for two efficient braking systems.

I would be inclined to agree with the government if it said the number of foreigners sneaking in their poor quality machines under this bit of regulation was just too small to worry about.

Those who think they can somehow retro-fit this loophole to over-rule the clearly stated UK law are talking rubbish. Unless they are willing to travel overseas and fetch in new sub-UK-standard bikes for temporary use on a frequent basis.

[bovlomov]

I think it's fair to say that modern brakes are considerably better than those of only a few years ago. I'm open to correction but I fancy that that for anybody who has persevered with something like single-pivot sidepulls or MAFAC Racers, or a returner to cycling after a break of say 25 years, only fixed wheel and coaster brakes would be unchanged from what they were used to. Roller lever brakes on steel rims are laugh-in territory, but ok for curates and the like pootling round the flat lands of East Yorks etc.

I can't see much to be gained by publicising the info that a lot of older bikes have poor brakes.

I used to ride everywhere with side pull brakes on chromed steel rims. True, the rims were knurled(?), but in the wet the only real braking surfaces were the patches of rust. If it was raining I had to ride very slowly with brakes permanently half on, looking far down the road. I never had an accident, but that may have been down to luck as much as judgement.

When I was riding a friend's bike, a touch on the front disc brake nearly sent me over the handlebars. I wasn't - and am still not - used to such braking efficiency. Does fast braking = safety?

[meic]

Does fast braking = safety?

It offers safety benefits which can (and will by many) be squandered by making full use of that extra ability to go faster instead of to improve safety. On the other hand many people will actually not use risk compensation and will reap the rewards of good brakes in an emergency.

A recent research did show that fitting ABS brakes to cars had increased the speed at which drivers would drive in situations where hard braking might be needed.