Government launches urgent review into cycle safety

thirdcrank
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Re: Government launches urgent review into cycle safety

Post by thirdcrank »

pwa wrote: ... That is my basic reaction too. An idiot cycling without adequate brakes deserves what he gets when ploughs into someone crossing the road, but I'd like to see the spotlight shone on him shone equally on each of the many other road fatalities that involved motor vehicles.


IMO there's a real risk of spoiling any campaign aimed at improving enforcement generally by giving the impression that cyclists feel they should be exempt. As it is, the lower danger presented by a cyclist is reflected in there being fewer "cycling-specific" laws; the construction requirements are fewer, limited only to lights and brakes; and with the notable exception of Blunkett's pavement cycling tickets, enforcement is light. We have a rare fatality leading to a cyclist being convicted, which attracts media interest by virtue of its rarity, but some seem to grasp at any straw to try to exonerate him.
pwa
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Re: Government launches urgent review into cycle safety

Post by pwa »

thirdcrank wrote:
pwa wrote: ... That is my basic reaction too. An idiot cycling without adequate brakes deserves what he gets when ploughs into someone crossing the road, but I'd like to see the spotlight shone on him shone equally on each of the many other road fatalities that involved motor vehicles.


IMO there's a real risk of spoiling any campaign aimed at improving enforcement generally by giving the impression that cyclists feel they should be exempt. As it is, the lower danger presented by a cyclist is reflected in there being fewer "cycling-specific" laws; the construction requirements are fewer, limited only to lights and brakes; and with the notable exception of Blunkett's pavement cycling tickets, enforcement is light. We have a rare fatality leading to a cyclist being convicted, which attracts media interest by virtue of its rarity, but some seem to grasp at any straw to try to exonerate him.


Going forward the challenge is to restore perspective. My own take on it is to say yes, this individual on a bike introduced unnecessary danger that in, the eyes of the court, was unacceptable. And, as someone died, it would be good if the law could factor that in. But while we are on the subject of road safety........ We need to steer the conversation onto that latter bit, to the overwhelming majority of road fatalities that are not, in any way, caused by cyclists.
thirdcrank
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Re: Government launches urgent review into cycle safety

Post by thirdcrank »

pwa wrote: ... Going forward the challenge is to restore perspective. My own take on it is to say yes, this individual on a bike introduced unnecessary danger that in, the eyes of the court, was unacceptable. And, as someone died, it would be good if the law could factor that in. But while we are on the subject of road safety........ We need to steer the conversation onto that latter bit, to the overwhelming majority of road fatalities that are not, in any way, caused by cyclists.


It's a matter of degree but, in spite of what others may feel, the Cuk approach of disapproving of lawbreaking and moving on to the campaign agenda is the only hope of going forward. Anything which sounds to be a qualification of that disapproval will be picked on and chewed like a bone.

It seems ironic that there are two extreme views separated by the usual spectrum in between, but both what I'll call the "Daily Mail view" and its opposite on this forum share the same explanation for what happened: "He's a cyclist."
Psamathe
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Re: Government launches urgent review into cycle safety

Post by Psamathe »

I note that whilst the headline for the story is "Government launches urgent review into cycle safety" the actual purpose of the review is to "Review to consider whether a new offence equivalent to causing death by careless or dangerous driving should be introduced for cyclists.".

To my mind, cycle safety means looking at infrastructure, roads, gear, training, enforcement, etc. I don't see that a new offence would be a significant contribution to "cycle safety".

Ian
Psamathe
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Re: Government launches urgent review into cycle safety

Post by Psamathe »

One thing that worries me a bit about this and the motivation behind this is that normally when there is a campaign from a victim (or families) it is targeted at trying to prevent the same thing happening to others. Young deer gets slaughtered and after campaign we get Bambi's Law protecting other fawns from such risks ...

In this case, rather than focusing on means to avoid others from suffering similar fate it seems more about making sure that when the same happens again there are stronger laws to punish the offender. And I'm not convinced that stronger laws would make any difference to how people cycle using what bikes/gear.

I'm not against appropriate new laws for cyclists, just that I don't see it as an urgent need and thus don't see why it's split into a two phase review and think it would all sound more positive if it were all just a single review into "Cycle Safety".

Ian
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meic
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Re: Government launches urgent review into cycle safety

Post by meic »

And I'm not convinced that stronger laws would make any difference to how people cycle using what bikes/gear.


Me neither, on two grounds.

Firstly I am pretty convinced that just like me every other cyclist will dismiss this as a freak occurrence that is about as likely to happen to them as getting struck by lightening.
The other more observation based grounds is that the existing laws for the driving offences that they wish to apply to cyclists have no noticeable effect on drivers' conduct. I dont know if they dismiss the possibility of hitting a ped with a tonne of steel and it killing them, or if they just dismiss the possibility of being held accountable if it does happen. It seems to me that the only motorists showing restraint are those that actually really care about hurting somebody.
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Re: Government launches urgent review into cycle safety

Post by mjr »

thirdcrank wrote:It's a matter of degree but, in spite of what others may feel, the Cuk approach of disapproving of lawbreaking and moving on to the campaign agenda is the only hope of going forward. Anything which sounds to be a qualification of that disapproval will be picked on and chewed like a bone.

That's no hope, then. If CUK persists with its misguided approach of criticising bad cycling first and only then moving on to the campaign, then all many outlets will report is the criticism, as a sort of "look! Even cyclists hate cyclists!" story element, as we've seen in the Alliston case, even from the BBC.

Few approaches have even a chance of working IMO. Maybe one is to push for the first part of that review to postpone its final assessment until after a more general Road Justice reform to come out of the second part, while continually reminding people that motor vehicles are hundreds of times more dangerous.
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DBridge
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Re: Government launches urgent review into cycle safety

Post by DBridge »

These forums are great but shouldn't we be making our points in the Daily Mail and the BBC. And of course your MP.
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meic
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Re: Government launches urgent review into cycle safety

Post by meic »

DBridge wrote:These forums are great but shouldn't we be making our points in the Daily Mail and the BBC. And of course your MP.

Yes but thrashing it out on here first helps to hone your argument and stop you saying something really stupid in the other media. Though rationality, truth and accuracy are a bit exceptional and probably wasted in those other places.
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Tangled Metal
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Re: Government launches urgent review into cycle safety

Post by Tangled Metal »

As if making points anywhere had a real effect on this. Unless you've got a voting block or perception of a voting block behind you is all hot air.

Truth is this review should be in one phase, that is how do we make our roads safer. AIUI British roads are among the safest in Europe. We've got a head start on this. It's just not even across modes of transport. As part of a single phase they should review everything from enforcement laws (personally the last thing to look at) to road design. With all aspects I believe the focus should be on a priority of most vulnerable first. Pedestrian safety, then cyclist safety, then motorized bike safety and so on.

This reverse hierarchy view of safety priority is the only way to go. As cyclists we're near the bottom but not at the bottom. That needs to be considered by all cyclists. We should be responsible for ensuring we do what we can when cycling to not cause harm to pedestrians. Even if the pedestrian makes a mistake by stepping into your path. It's a matter of your risk assessment skills and acting on it. Alliston was weak in this and has an 18 month sentence for it. That is right result IMHO.
thirdcrank
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Re: Government launches urgent review into cycle safety

Post by thirdcrank »

mjr wrote: ... That's no hope, then. If CUK persists with its misguided approach of criticising bad cycling first and only then moving on to the campaign, then all many outlets will report is the criticism, as a sort of "look! Even cyclists hate cyclists!" story element, as we've seen in the Alliston case, even from the BBC.

Few approaches have even a chance of working IMO. Maybe one is to push for the first part of that review to postpone its final assessment until after a more general Road Justice reform to come out of the second part, while continually reminding people that motor vehicles are hundreds of times more dangerous.


I think it will be difficult but there's always room for optimism. It's rather unfortunate, for example, that the increased priority given to personal violence after decades of campaigning should have contributed to a switch of resources / change in priorities which have moved traffic policing to a chapter in history, but it does show how campaigning can bring about change. I also believe that the driverless car technology will have an earlier impact than many imagine and certainly before the general introduction of fully driverless vehicles. In mistaken anticipation of a failed MOT, I recently spent a bit of time looking at the specs of new small cars. I was amazed to see how many offered features like crash reduction technology designed to warn a driver that a crash may be imminent and automatically begin to brake. I've since read that this is a part of the top NCAP rating. All sorts of pro's and cons, of course, and a lot depends how the technology is programmed but there's room for campaigning to have this set for safety rather than speed at the danger of vulnerable road users. We are also seeing an unfortunately slow extension of camera-based technology to enforcement. I'd like to see the general use of cameras at traffic lights and there's other innovation increasingly available. I believe that compelling all traffic to observe traffic signals would facilitate the introduction of driverless vehicles.

I've not been slow to criticise the CTC/Cuk, but in this case I'll reiterate that I think they've taken the only workable approach. This crash couldn't have come at a good time, but against the background of Cuk trying to get the govt., to complete (start) the long-awaited review of the wider subject, this trial has come at a bad time. The defendant has presented anti-cycling media and social media with a bogeyman beyond their wildest stereotypes. The less publicity he gets the better IMO.

As a human being, he has my sympathy and when he's released, presumably after an expensive nine months in youth custody, he won't be a better person than he was when the judge sent him down. But as a cause célèbre, he's not one to campaign for.
================================================================
Tangled Metal

You posted while I was scribing. Don't fall into the trap of accepting that a low casualty count = safety. While casualties are to be reduced as much as possible, frightening vulnerable road users off the roads with vehicles designed to protect their occupants at everybody else's expense isn't safety.
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Wanlock Dod
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Re: Government launches urgent review into cycle safety

Post by Wanlock Dod »

Given that for some generations the official view of improving cycling safety has been to reduce the number of cyclists I can see a whole raft of laws on compulsory helmets, hi-viz, bells, and gutter riding being sufficient to both embolden motorists and discourage cyclists. It's a sure way to make cycling "safe" and it's already been working in principle for quite some time.
thirdcrank
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Re: Government launches urgent review into cycle safety

Post by thirdcrank »

And if there is anything for which IMO the CTC deserves praise, it's for fighting that official mentality in those dark days (1970s and 80s) before cycling came to be seen as environmentally friendly and before our racing cyclists put the sport side of our sport on the agenda with a near monopoly of Olympic medals and a lot of leaders' jerseys.

I'm pretty sure that if the CTC hadn't kept on plugging away in those dark days, farcilities, CYCLISTS DISMOUNT signs and all the rest would now be compulsory.

It's a sad irony that cycling's rise in coolness/fashion / being the in thing, should have led to a young man behaving like this.
ianrobo
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Re: Government launches urgent review into cycle safety

Post by ianrobo »

pwa wrote:
ianrobo wrote:I should state in this case the sentence of Aliston was Fair.

My problem is that others are not treated the same way, the whole list in the thread here and many many more. All we should ask for is fairness.


That is my basic reaction too. An idiot cycling without adequate brakes deserves what he gets when ploughs into someone crossing the road, but I'd like to see the spotlight shone on him shone equally on each of the many other road fatalities that involved motor vehicles.


which the papers, govt and Mp's just totally ignore. We had here a girl on a crossing ran over by a elderly guy who simply 'did not see the red light' and was warned by opticians not to drive.

Think about that, he knew he was a danger and yet still drove https://www.expressandstar.com/news/cri ... locked-up/

just 4 YEARS in jail for that and death by dangerous driving, this was [rude word removed] manslaughter !! I can not imagine what I would feel like if that had been my daughter ....
Psamathe
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Re: Government launches urgent review into cycle safety

Post by Psamathe »

Tangled Metal wrote:.....Alliston was weak in this and has an 18 month sentence for it. That is right result IMHO.

Without commenting on the sentence (something which I have absolutely no idea on), I agree when you say "That is right result IMHO" and to me that suggests that the current law is working. He was taken to court facing a number of charges, was found guilty of some, not guilty of others and got what many are saying is between harsh and probably correct sentence. So I can't understand where the urgency for the new law for cyclists comes from. I have no issue with regularising offences, etc. but I can't understand the outcry about the law being inadequate and needing urgent review.

Ian
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