Harsher sentences for driving offences confirmed

thirdcrank
Posts: 28648
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Harsher sentences for driving offences confirmed

Postby thirdcrank » 16 Oct 2017, 10:34am

You certainly have to think of criminal justice as a system, with separate but interacting parts and outcomes. It seems to me that a consensus of behaving well is best, but even that is hard to define. Then deterrence by the fear of detection. Calls for condign punishment are IMO a sign that the system is failing although it can be caused by two different things. The first is the belief that "nobody gets caught." The second is that when people are caught, the system contrives to "let them off." We can see this at two levels. In E&W (and probably S too) things like claiming "exceptional hardship" as a means to avoid totting-up disqualification is a low-level example. In the US, the condign punishments mean that all manner of safeguards such as appeals seem to render the system ineffective without complicated plea-bargaining. But when somebody is eventually convicted, it's barbaric punishment, generally after years of cruel detention in limbo.

I can't see a realistic solution for driving offences in the UK. Thirty odd years ago, the CPS unilaterally decided that the existing CJ system wasn't appropriate for dealing with most traffic offences. The most obvious result was that the police investigation of the vast majority of crashes stopped. (I nearly omitted "police" but private investigations have continued on behalf of insurers.) Alternatives to some prosecutions were introduced such as vehicle defect rectification schemes (VDRS) fixed penalties, and driver awareness courses, but the level of enforcement of "bad driving" collapsed. This is disguised by the figures for speeding enforcement by camera, but the once general belief that if you misbehaved behind the wheel, or indeed the handlebars, you'd be in bother has gone. The former levels of enforcement will not return.

So, we get calls for deterrent sentencing and the govt., obliges. A sign of a failing CJ system.

Phil Fouracre
Posts: 803
Joined: 12 Jan 2013, 12:16pm
Location: Deepest Somerset

Re: Harsher sentences for driving offences confirmed

Postby Phil Fouracre » 16 Oct 2017, 10:56am

Just about sums up perfectly how I've see it for a long time!
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity

User avatar
The utility cyclist
Posts: 2433
Joined: 22 Aug 2016, 12:28pm
Location: The first garden city

Re: Harsher sentences for driving offences confirmed

Postby The utility cyclist » 18 Oct 2017, 7:23pm

but when you have judges continually saying 'momentary lack of attention/concentration' this again is meaningless BS
points and a small fine, no ban and yet a Royal Marine was put in intensive care :twisted: http://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-new ... ife-642719

rmurphy195
Posts: 1405
Joined: 20 May 2011, 11:23am
Location: South Birmingham

Re: Harsher sentences for driving offences confirmed

Postby rmurphy195 » 20 Oct 2017, 12:26am

Here's a question for you ...

Current penalties for driving offences apply to the driver of the vehicle involved - a single individual failing to act properly at a particulr point in time..

In the context of self-driving cars - who would a ban apply to? The driver?- but since he is not in control of the vehicle, how?

The vehicle?Would all cars of the same make/model, or using the same software/sensor setup, be banned from the road for a period if one of them caused an accident (since they are all identical, if one is at fault then they all will be under the same circumstances)?
Brompton, Condor Heritage, creaky joints and thinning white (formerly grey) hair
""You know you're getting old when it's easier to ride a bike than to get on and off it" - quote from observant jogger !

JohnW
Posts: 6229
Joined: 6 Jan 2007, 9:12pm
Location: Yorkshire

Re: Harsher sentences for driving offences confirmed

Postby JohnW » 20 Oct 2017, 9:40am

rmurphy195 wrote:Here's a question for you ...

Current penalties for driving offences apply to the driver of the vehicle involved - a single individual failing to act properly at a particulr point in time..

In the context of self-driving cars - who would a ban apply to? The driver?- but since he is not in control of the vehicle, how?

The vehicle?Would all cars of the same make/model, or using the same software/sensor setup, be banned from the road for a period if one of them caused an accident (since they are all identical, if one is at fault then they all will be under the same circumstances)?

The anti-cyclist faction of the motorists' religion hierarchy would hack into the cars' computers and kill us all - just for enjoyment.

Mattyfez
Posts: 351
Joined: 22 Dec 2014, 7:24pm

Re: Harsher sentences for driving offences confirmed

Postby Mattyfez » 20 Oct 2017, 9:52am

rmurphy195 wrote:Here's a question for you ...

Current penalties for driving offences apply to the driver of the vehicle involved - a single individual failing to act properly at a particulr point in time..

In the context of self-driving cars - who would a ban apply to? The driver?- but since he is not in control of the vehicle, how?

The vehicle?Would all cars of the same make/model, or using the same software/sensor setup, be banned from the road for a period if one of them caused an accident (since they are all identical, if one is at fault then they all will be under the same circumstances)?


Assuming your talking about completely automated cars...

Realistically, a software update would be pushed out to prevent the same thing ever happening again.
The manufacturer would probably face a fine of some sort.

That sort of accident would only happen once, so it would be much safer for the general population.

Ruadh495
Posts: 413
Joined: 25 Jun 2016, 11:10am

Re: Harsher sentences for driving offences confirmed

Postby Ruadh495 » 20 Oct 2017, 10:47am

Perhaps an automated vehicle accident could be dealt with under Health and Safety legislation rather than road traffic? Same as any other accident involving automated equipment. That might mean no actual penalties for anyone, but an update to all vehicles using the faulty software.
Most road traffic offences would cease to exist once automated vehicles become universal. "Causing death by dangerous driving" would be replaced by "Corporate manslaughter" for example.

User avatar
mjr
Posts: 13761
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 7:06pm
Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
Contact:

Re: Harsher sentences for driving offences confirmed

Postby mjr » 20 Oct 2017, 11:17am

Stevek76 wrote:...and any reasonably serious injury has resulted (ie not whipcash).

Real whiplash can be a serious injury, permanently damaging or impairing the nerves, discs or intervertebral joints around the neck, having life-changing effects on the victim requiring near-permanent physical therapy and medication. I know it's become a fashionable claim for scammers because it requires a CT or MRI to confirm most non-disc causes, but please be cautious about tarring all victims with a pejorative name like "whipcash".
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

Bonefishblues
Posts: 6777
Joined: 7 Jul 2014, 9:45pm
Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: Harsher sentences for driving offences confirmed

Postby Bonefishblues » 20 Oct 2017, 11:19am

mjr wrote:
Stevek76 wrote:...and any reasonably serious injury has resulted (ie not whipcash).

Real whiplash can be a serious injury, permanently damaging or impairing the nerves, discs or intervertebral joints around the neck, having life-changing effects on the victim requiring near-permanent physical therapy and medication. I know it's become a fashionable claim for scammers because it requires a CT or MRI to confirm most non-disc causes, but please be cautious about tarring all victims with a pejorative name like "whipcash".

Indeed. My wife foolishly settled a personal injury claim too early and still suffers the consequences of a Range Rover trying to mount her car some years later :?

Stevek76
Posts: 510
Joined: 28 Jul 2015, 11:23am

Re: Harsher sentences for driving offences confirmed

Postby Stevek76 » 20 Oct 2017, 12:53pm

mjr wrote: I know it's become a fashionable claim for scammers because it requires a CT or MRI to confirm most non-disc causes, but please be cautious about tarring all victims with a pejorative name like "whipcash".



Fair point, I was using the pejorative to attempt to differentiate out the fraudulent claims.

If I'm honest, the very strict part of myself would like to see some kind of sanction start for causing any collision at all but practicalities wise that starts to become problematic in terms of fraudulent collision claims, non reporting etc.

However that you can cause injury requiring medical attention and it simply gets shrugged off as a tragic accident I find baffling when for doing the same with anything else of similar lethality you would be facing some kind of penalty.