Harsher sentences for driving offences confirmed

thirdcrank
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Re: Harsher sentences for driving offences confirmed

Post by thirdcrank »

You certainly have to think of criminal justice as a system, with separate but interacting parts and outcomes. It seems to me that a consensus of behaving well is best, but even that is hard to define. Then deterrence by the fear of detection. Calls for condign punishment are IMO a sign that the system is failing although it can be caused by two different things. The first is the belief that "nobody gets caught." The second is that when people are caught, the system contrives to "let them off." We can see this at two levels. In E&W (and probably S too) things like claiming "exceptional hardship" as a means to avoid totting-up disqualification is a low-level example. In the US, the condign punishments mean that all manner of safeguards such as appeals seem to render the system ineffective without complicated plea-bargaining. But when somebody is eventually convicted, it's barbaric punishment, generally after years of cruel detention in limbo.

I can't see a realistic solution for driving offences in the UK. Thirty odd years ago, the CPS unilaterally decided that the existing CJ system wasn't appropriate for dealing with most traffic offences. The most obvious result was that the police investigation of the vast majority of crashes stopped. (I nearly omitted "police" but private investigations have continued on behalf of insurers.) Alternatives to some prosecutions were introduced such as vehicle defect rectification schemes (VDRS) fixed penalties, and driver awareness courses, but the level of enforcement of "bad driving" collapsed. This is disguised by the figures for speeding enforcement by camera, but the once general belief that if you misbehaved behind the wheel, or indeed the handlebars, you'd be in bother has gone. The former levels of enforcement will not return.

So, we get calls for deterrent sentencing and the govt., obliges. A sign of a failing CJ system.
Phil Fouracre
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Re: Harsher sentences for driving offences confirmed

Post by Phil Fouracre »

Just about sums up perfectly how I've see it for a long time!
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The utility cyclist
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Re: Harsher sentences for driving offences confirmed

Post by The utility cyclist »

but when you have judges continually saying 'momentary lack of attention/concentration' this again is meaningless BS
points and a small fine, no ban and yet a Royal Marine was put in intensive care :twisted: http://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-new ... ife-642719
rmurphy195
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Re: Harsher sentences for driving offences confirmed

Post by rmurphy195 »

Here's a question for you ...

Current penalties for driving offences apply to the driver of the vehicle involved - a single individual failing to act properly at a particulr point in time..

In the context of self-driving cars - who would a ban apply to? The driver?- but since he is not in control of the vehicle, how?

The vehicle?Would all cars of the same make/model, or using the same software/sensor setup, be banned from the road for a period if one of them caused an accident (since they are all identical, if one is at fault then they all will be under the same circumstances)?
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JohnW
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Re: Harsher sentences for driving offences confirmed

Post by JohnW »

rmurphy195 wrote:Here's a question for you ...

Current penalties for driving offences apply to the driver of the vehicle involved - a single individual failing to act properly at a particulr point in time..

In the context of self-driving cars - who would a ban apply to? The driver?- but since he is not in control of the vehicle, how?

The vehicle?Would all cars of the same make/model, or using the same software/sensor setup, be banned from the road for a period if one of them caused an accident (since they are all identical, if one is at fault then they all will be under the same circumstances)?

The anti-cyclist faction of the motorists' religion hierarchy would hack into the cars' computers and kill us all - just for enjoyment.
Mattyfez
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Re: Harsher sentences for driving offences confirmed

Post by Mattyfez »

rmurphy195 wrote:Here's a question for you ...

Current penalties for driving offences apply to the driver of the vehicle involved - a single individual failing to act properly at a particulr point in time..

In the context of self-driving cars - who would a ban apply to? The driver?- but since he is not in control of the vehicle, how?

The vehicle?Would all cars of the same make/model, or using the same software/sensor setup, be banned from the road for a period if one of them caused an accident (since they are all identical, if one is at fault then they all will be under the same circumstances)?


Assuming your talking about completely automated cars...

Realistically, a software update would be pushed out to prevent the same thing ever happening again.
The manufacturer would probably face a fine of some sort.

That sort of accident would only happen once, so it would be much safer for the general population.
Ruadh495
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Re: Harsher sentences for driving offences confirmed

Post by Ruadh495 »

Perhaps an automated vehicle accident could be dealt with under Health and Safety legislation rather than road traffic? Same as any other accident involving automated equipment. That might mean no actual penalties for anyone, but an update to all vehicles using the faulty software.
Most road traffic offences would cease to exist once automated vehicles become universal. "Causing death by dangerous driving" would be replaced by "Corporate manslaughter" for example.
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mjr
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Re: Harsher sentences for driving offences confirmed

Post by mjr »

Stevek76 wrote:...and any reasonably serious injury has resulted (ie not whipcash).

Real whiplash can be a serious injury, permanently damaging or impairing the nerves, discs or intervertebral joints around the neck, having life-changing effects on the victim requiring near-permanent physical therapy and medication. I know it's become a fashionable claim for scammers because it requires a CT or MRI to confirm most non-disc causes, but please be cautious about tarring all victims with a pejorative name like "whipcash".
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Bonefishblues
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Re: Harsher sentences for driving offences confirmed

Post by Bonefishblues »

mjr wrote:
Stevek76 wrote:...and any reasonably serious injury has resulted (ie not whipcash).

Real whiplash can be a serious injury, permanently damaging or impairing the nerves, discs or intervertebral joints around the neck, having life-changing effects on the victim requiring near-permanent physical therapy and medication. I know it's become a fashionable claim for scammers because it requires a CT or MRI to confirm most non-disc causes, but please be cautious about tarring all victims with a pejorative name like "whipcash".

Indeed. My wife foolishly settled a personal injury claim too early and still suffers the consequences of a Range Rover trying to mount her car some years later :?
Stevek76
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Re: Harsher sentences for driving offences confirmed

Post by Stevek76 »

mjr wrote: I know it's become a fashionable claim for scammers because it requires a CT or MRI to confirm most non-disc causes, but please be cautious about tarring all victims with a pejorative name like "whipcash".



Fair point, I was using the pejorative to attempt to differentiate out the fraudulent claims.

If I'm honest, the very strict part of myself would like to see some kind of sanction start for causing any collision at all but practicalities wise that starts to become problematic in terms of fraudulent collision claims, non reporting etc.

However that you can cause injury requiring medical attention and it simply gets shrugged off as a tragic accident I find baffling when for doing the same with anything else of similar lethality you would be facing some kind of penalty.
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