Should use of motor vehicle rear fog lamps only be allowed on special roads eg motorways?

Bonefishblues
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Re: Should use of motor vehicle rear fog lamps only be allowed on special roads eg motorways?

Post by Bonefishblues »

Unless there's some sort of teleportation functionality I've as yet missed I fail to see how putting a handbrake on will prevent somebody running into the back of me, which, to recap, is what I'm seeking to avoid, in extremis, by moving me out of the way.
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Re: Should use of motor vehicle rear fog lamps only be allowed on special roads eg motorways?

Post by mjr »

Bonefishblues wrote:Unless there's some sort of teleportation functionality I've as yet missed I fail to see how putting a handbrake on will prevent somebody running into the back of me, which, to recap, is what I'm seeking to avoid, in extremis, by moving me out of the way.

hold-it-with-footbrake-only drivers apparently prioritise a tiny increase in the chance that you can move out of the way over a massive reduction in the chance of you hitting the road user in front when you don't avoid someone running into you or if you lose your grip on the brake pedal for some other reason. "I'm alright, Jack" motoring.

I think consistently not using your handbrake would result in a driving test fail. Here's a driving instruction company explaining correct use: 4 min 18 into https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ye2JFWmxXao
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Re: Should use of motor vehicle rear fog lamps only be allowed on special roads eg motorways?

Post by [XAP]Bob »

meic wrote:
In a queue if the lights are too bright I close my eyes and wait till the idiot behind me blows her horn

Has that ever happened? The lights in front being so bright that you closed your eyes?
For me it is always the lights behind that are the problem.


Heck around here it's often the traffic lights that are too bright.
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Re: Should use of motor vehicle rear fog lamps only be allowed on special roads eg motorways?

Post by Vorpal »

mjr wrote:hold-it-with-footbrake-only drivers apparently prioritise a tiny increase in the chance that you can move out of the way over a massive reduction in the chance of you hitting the road user in front when you don't avoid someone running into you or if you lose your grip on the brake pedal for some other reason. "I'm alright, Jack" motoring.

I think consistently not using your handbrake would result in a driving test fail. Here's a driving instruction company explaining correct use: 4 min 18 into https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ye2JFWmxXao



If you expect tp to be stopped for a short time, such as at a stop sign or a roundabout with light traffic, you do not need to use the hand brake.

http://www.iam-bristol.org.uk/index.php ... short-stay
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Re: Should use of motor vehicle rear fog lamps only be allowed on special roads eg motorways?

Post by Cyril Haearn »

Vorpal wrote:
mjr wrote:hold-it-with-footbrake-only drivers apparently prioritise a tiny increase in the chance that you can move out of the way over a massive reduction in the chance of you hitting the road user in front when you don't avoid someone running into you or if you lose your grip on the brake pedal for some other reason. "I'm alright, Jack" motoring.

I think consistently not using your handbrake would result in a driving test fail. Here's a driving instruction company explaining correct use: 4 min 18 into https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ye2JFWmxXao



If you expect tp to be stopped for a short time, such as at a stop sign or a roundabout with light traffic, you do not need to use the hand brake.

http://www.iam-bristol.org.uk/index.php ... short-stay


I always apply the handbrake even for a moment
At STOP signs I always stop for a moment but do not apply the handbrake if the way is clear
Anyone else always stop at stop signs?
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Bonefishblues
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Re: Should use of motor vehicle rear fog lamps only be allowed on special roads eg motorways?

Post by Bonefishblues »

mjr wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:Unless there's some sort of teleportation functionality I've as yet missed I fail to see how putting a handbrake on will prevent somebody running into the back of me, which, to recap, is what I'm seeking to avoid, in extremis, by moving me out of the way.

hold-it-with-footbrake-only drivers apparently prioritise a tiny increase in the chance that you can move out of the way over a massive reduction in the chance of you hitting the road user in front when you don't avoid someone running into you or if you lose your grip on the brake pedal for some other reason. "I'm alright, Jack" motoring.

I think consistently not using your handbrake would result in a driving test fail. Here's a driving instruction company explaining correct use: 4 min 18 into https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ye2JFWmxXao

That seems something of an extrapolation of anything that I have written on the thread. Here's how it is.

I am in a position where I have stopped unexpectedly in fog. There is nobody behind me, repeat nobody - nobody to get cross with me, nobody to think me selfish. My fear is someone will arrive at speed and wipe me out. I will not, in that circumstance put my handbrake on for very well-founded reasons.

This is not how I would normally drive, but there again, I have been very clear - or at least I thought I had been, about the precise and specific circumstances. Your posting youtube videos serves no purpose in the context of this discussion unless it references the crcumstances I have been consistently discussing, indeed a less reasonable person than I might think you were simply seeking to be inflammatory :lol:

By the way, how does having a handbrake on prevent an accident as you earlier advised - I'm still interested in that comment.
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Re: Should use of motor vehicle rear fog lamps only be allowed on special roads eg motorways?

Post by Vorpal »

A motorist obviously needs to use some judgement about when it is appropriate to not use a handbrake. There are some circumstance where it should always be used, such as at a pedestrian crossing.

If you are involved in a shunt, and hit the car in front as a result of having been hit from behind whilst stopped, you may be held liable for damage to the car in front, if you had not applied the handbrake. It is quite likely that the insurance companies involved will assign some of the liability to you.

As far as I know, the only time you are legally obligated to apply the handbrake is when parking. Maybe someone else knows something different?
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Re: Should use of motor vehicle rear fog lamps only be allowed on special roads eg motorways?

Post by Cyril Haearn »

Vorpal wrote:A motorist obviously needs to use some judgement about when it is appropriate to not use a handbrake. There are some circumstance where it should always be used, such as at a pedestrian crossing.

If you are involved in a shunt, and hit the car in front as a result of having been hit from behind whilst stopped, you may be held liable for damage to the car in front, if you had not applied the handbrake. It is quite likely that the insurance companies involved will assign some of the liability to you.

As far as I know, the only time you are legally obligated to apply the handbrake is when parking. Maybe someone else knows something different?


Apply handbrake, engage gear and turn the wheels so the vehicle can not roll away if both fail
In Germany there is an urban myth that the handbrake might stick, many just engage gear, how is it in Norge?
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Re: Should use of motor vehicle rear fog lamps only be allowed on special roads eg motorways?

Post by mjr »

Bonefishblues wrote:By the way, how does having a handbrake on prevent an accident as you earlier advised - I'm still interested in that comment.

It may well prevent your vehicle hitting the one in front if something randomly strikes the back of your car with sufficient force to dislodge feet from pedals. Of course, someone causing a collision by incompetent driving isn't strictly speaking an accident, so maybe you mean something else when you claim that not having the handbrake on allows you to avoid an accident... isn't the whole point of an accident that it was unavoidable random unluck? (to use a Peter Sagan word)
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Re: Should use of motor vehicle rear fog lamps only be allowed on special roads eg motorways?

Post by meic »

In Germany there is an urban myth that the handbrake might stick

No myth! Drum brakes frequently (incessantly) will seize in the on position if left even just overnight.
Leave it a week and you will possibly be removing the wheels and bashing the drums with a lump hammer. Though pedantically speaking there is nothing at fault with the handbrake mechanism it is just that the brakes are seized on.
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Re: Should use of motor vehicle rear fog lamps only be allowed on special roads eg motorways?

Post by Bonefishblues »

mjr wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:By the way, how does having a handbrake on prevent an accident as you earlier advised - I'm still interested in that comment.

It may well prevent your vehicle hitting the one in front if something randomly strikes the back of your car with sufficient force to dislodge feet from pedals. Of course, someone causing a collision by incompetent driving isn't strictly speaking an accident, so maybe you mean something else when you claim that not having the handbrake on allows you to avoid an accident... isn't the whole point of an accident that it was unavoidable random unluck? (to use a Peter Sagan word)

So it doesn't avoid an accident to my car, it would, at slow speeds*, prevent a second impact through my car striking the car in front if I'd not left sufficient gap.

Of course, what I have been saying consistently, is that my objective would not be there to be hit, just as in the scenario with the coach. Had I had the handbrake on then, I would likely have died - it really is that simple.

*Handbrakes only act on the rear wheels, so are of limited effectiveness, rather less mechanically effective than braking all 4 wheels.
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Re: Should use of motor vehicle rear fog lamps only be allowed on special roads eg motorways?

Post by mjr »

Bonefishblues wrote:So it doesn't avoid an accident to my car, it would, at slow speeds*, prevent a second impact through my car striking the car in front if I'd not left sufficient gap.

It avoids you causing a second collision, but I think it's pretty clear you don't care about the car in front and would simply drive out of the way and let them be hit instead if you could.

Bonefishblues wrote:Of course, what I have been saying consistently, is that my objective would not be there to be hit, just as in the scenario with the coach. Had I had the handbrake on then, I would likely have died - it really is that simple.

It's far from simple. You think you would have and you might be right or you might be wrong, but it does seem awfully like it's being used it to justify further bad practice, similar to what certain categories of crashing cyclists claim.

Vorpal wrote:If you expect tp to be stopped for a short time, such as at a stop sign or a roundabout with light traffic, you do not need to use the hand brake.

http://www.iam-bristol.org.uk/index.php ... short-stay

I'm not disagreeing with that, but with the bad habit of using the footbrake instead of the handbrake when stopped for some time, just like your linked page: "you will usually apply the handbrake at traffic lights, on hills, waiting to turn right and always at a pedestrian crossing".

Also, a Barclaycard survey report named failure to apply the handbrake in queues as part of "the number one “fuel wasting habit” practiced by British motorists" and "something that 40 per cent of motorists admit to". Are handbrake refuseniks also a pollution problem because they're preventing their cars' stop-start system from activating when it should?
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Re: Should use of motor vehicle rear fog lamps only be allowed on special roads eg motorways?

Post by Bmblbzzz »

Cyril Haearn wrote:
Vorpal wrote:
mjr wrote:hold-it-with-footbrake-only drivers apparently prioritise a tiny increase in the chance that you can move out of the way over a massive reduction in the chance of you hitting the road user in front when you don't avoid someone running into you or if you lose your grip on the brake pedal for some other reason. "I'm alright, Jack" motoring.

I think consistently not using your handbrake would result in a driving test fail. Here's a driving instruction company explaining correct use: 4 min 18 into https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ye2JFWmxXao



If you expect tp to be stopped for a short time, such as at a stop sign or a roundabout with light traffic, you do not need to use the hand brake.

http://www.iam-bristol.org.uk/index.php ... short-stay


I always apply the handbrake even for a moment
At STOP signs I always stop for a moment but do not apply the handbrake if the way is clear
Anyone else always stop at stop signs?

No, I practise that part of the Idaho stop, even though I've never been to Idaho. I don't follow the red light as stop sign part though.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idaho_stop

But if driving, sure, I stop at a stop sign. I wouldn't apply the handbrake though, as I'll probably only be stopped a few seconds and need to be ready to go as soon as the opportunity arrives. At a red light I'd apply the handbrake as the wait is longer and the opportunity to move off is more predictable.
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Re: Should use of motor vehicle rear fog lamps only be allowed on special roads eg motorways?

Post by Cyril Haearn »

I don't like stop-start automatics, they only switch the motor off for a few seconds
One often gets a shock when crossing the road and some idiot restarts their motor a few meters away
There should be some device fitted to apply the handbrake automatically at foot crossings
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Re: Should use of motor vehicle rear fog lamps only be allowed on special roads eg motorways?

Post by Bonefishblues »

mjr wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:So it doesn't avoid an accident to my car, it would, at slow speeds*, prevent a second impact through my car striking the car in front if I'd not left sufficient gap.

It avoids you causing a second collision, but I think it's pretty clear you don't care about the car in front and would simply drive out of the way and let them be hit instead if you could.

Bonefishblues wrote:Of course, what I have been saying consistently, is that my objective would not be there to be hit, just as in the scenario with the coach. Had I had the handbrake on then, I would likely have died - it really is that simple.

It's far from simple. You think you would have and you might be right or you might be wrong, but it does seem awfully like it's being used it to justify further bad practice, similar to what certain categories of crashing cyclists claim.

I don't care, yep, that's right - except do you know what, the fact that the coach didn't hit me meant we, all of us who were sat like sitting ducks, avoided a multi-vehicle accident. My moving also allows a longer braking distance for the approaching car or vehicle to either stop or further reduce speed and hence impact. Remember this is in a very specific circumstance.

Similarly, how is "further bad practice" being justified by me in a very specific circumstance. I have not sought to extrapolate this in any way - that is all yours, not mine.
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