A tougher line on speeding?

[thirdcrank]

My impression - and it's no more than that - is that if we had a way of keeping speeds generally low, and ordinary fixed cameras are useless in this regard, then people like couriers would be better off because at constantly low speeds, drivers on the main drag would be more relaxed about letting others in, rather than their being forced to wait for a non-existent gap and force their way in.

Average speed cameras are the way forward.

[mjr]

... Then surely you also need the same lines for a mobile speed camera (i.e. held by a Policeman). Machine measures the speed but no lines to "prove" the speed? ...

Different technology, with the human operator witnessing the event and being corroborated by the camera. That's AFAIK. A better comparison would be with the ptrol car driver who follows the suspect vehicle over a distance, generally at 2/10 of a mile, noting the speedo reading. Their evidence is that in their opinion, the car was exceeding the limit, and their evidence of opinion is corroborated why their observation of the speedo.

Even so, some of the more popular mobile speed camera points (Psamathe may know the bridges over the A47 North Tuddenham bypass straight) have/had VASCAR calibration pairs of white squares painted in each lane on the road near them, which I thought were also used to assist formation of such opinions or to offer a second timing check - but let's face it, a hi-vis mobile camera van parked sideways on a bridge is even more conspicuous than a signposted fixed speed camera. Anyone getting caught by them deserves a fine for carelessly unobservant driving as much as speeding.

[Stevek76]

As far as I know mobile/handheld ones are calibrated at the start of each day, hence no need for lines.

As for proportions caught, I don't think the numbers are out there at that detail but anecdotally, round here my impression is that considerably more speeding course attendances and/or points are a result of the mobile vans, not the fixed ones. Perhaps it varies by region based on numbers of each.

[thirdcrank]

VASCAR is pretty old technology but straightforward. I see from Wiki that it was invented in the 1960's but IIRC it began to be introduced here in the early 70's. (My memory of first hearing it described was on a junior CID course in 1973 when they threw in some traffic stuff for good measure.) The VASCAR equipped vehicle is used to measure a distance between two easily observed markers and then the operator presses the appropriate buttons when the suspect vehicle passes the markers and the equipment does a time/distance to calculate the speed. When I heard it first explained, the shadow of a bridge on a vehicle passing underneath it was considered a good marker. I know that the white road markings are for VASCAR but I've no idea of the extent to which the system is still used. (I think the order in which it's done doesn't matter in that if the crew of a VASCAR-equipped car have a suitable view of a suspect speeder they can time it between two markers then measure the distance, although they need the vehicle reg as a minimum and preferably stop the vehicle to ascertain the driver's ID.)

As has been noted, a lot of the costs relate to human operation. eg With the old-fashioned radar, a trained traffic officer set it up and checked its accuracy on the day against the calibrated car speedo (which in turn had been checked over a measured mile) and then operated the "master set" containing the radar, with a dial and the junior sub-underling such as YOS noted the speed displayed on the remote further down the road and then stopped the alleged offender, using the unforgettable mantra "You will be reported for consideration of the question of prosecuting you ....etc."

In the event of a contested case, that's when the manpower costs kick in, because even a short case can take an hour with all the flummery and there's travel to and from court on top of that.

[reohn2]

But the lovely thing about speed limits and red lights is that we don't need to take up any police officer time. We could automate enforcement of these and leave the police to do the more dangerous crimes instead of the current situation where there aren't enough cameras on.

We could automate RLJing easy enough with cameras on every TL if the state had a mind to.
We could,with far more difficulty automate average speed on any given road with cameras,whether the accuracy would be to 1 or 2mph is another matter and whether drivers would stay on that road long enough to have their average speed verified is another matter.Perhaps a few would on some routes,but in built up areas with many side roads and alternative routes and roads available to them I very much doubt it.
That leaves the shed load of other serious crimes committed by motorists on UK roads that go unnoticed daily due to a complete lack of effective policing
Not mention the p*** poor sentencing of serious driver crime
Shouldn't the country be focusing on those first?

That seems a bit of a false dichotomy or at least unnecessary serialisation of activities. They mostly require largely-independent resources, so we could do both simultaneously, or we could do one or the other, or neither - and it looks depressingly likely from all the people voting for police-cutting government and commissioners, combined with all the people - even on a cycling forum! - opposing stricter camera enforcement that it'll be neither.

This discussion reminds me of the Al Murray joke about "decent honest hard working normal tax paying law abiding ordinary people who don't want to pay their speeding fines".

No false dicotomy at all IMO,it makes perfect sense to me that you clampdown on those causing the most stress to other road users and crashes on the roads,which aren't those who let their speed slip to 1 or 2mph over the limit .

[reohn2]

Stevek76
Just to put the record straight,I see far more young and middle aged idiots driving than I ever do old idiots.That maybe because there's more young and middle aged people driving but that doesn't change anything.

hmm missed this thread for a bit, was this based on my wording of 'any old idiot'? I was using 'any old' in the phrase sense that basically means 'any' rather than intending any age based meaning.

In that case I'll let you off with a caution

[reohn2]

.........Average speed cameras are the way forward.

I'd agree,but they're of limited use on a lot if not most 30mph urban roads due to those type of roads having so many side roads,and if those average speed detectors where spaced at say 2/10ths of a mile,locals would,like current Gatso type cameras,soon know where they were.
And as many 30mph urban roads are mostly used by local and relatively local traffic word would get around PDQ about them.

IMO unmarked camera vans that pop up anywhere and everywhere are the answer,but as I've posted before the chances of making 1 and 2 mph law breakers cases stick is another matter,as it would firstly need accurate speedos to within 1mph on all production cars,and the same kind of accuracy of police camera equipment.
I think that's why there's a speeding tolerance of 10% in such cases.

[[XAP]Bob]

Just need to stop painting them yellow - and have them not obvious.
Then they can be regularly moved around... The target has to be to have everyone assume that speed is always being monitored...

Heck - we could do without them, have speed sign reading cameras and GPS mapping etc combine and show the speed limit in each car, as well as automatically warning, and then issuing fines/points....

[mjr]

We could automate RLJing easy enough with cameras on every TL if the state had a mind to.
We could,with far more difficulty automate average speed on any given road with cameras,whether the accuracy would be to 1 or 2mph is another matter and whether drivers would stay on that road long enough to have their average speed verified is another matter.Perhaps a few would on some routes,but in built up areas with many side roads and alternative routes and roads available to them I very much doubt it.
That leaves the shed load of other serious crimes committed by motorists on UK roads that go unnoticed daily due to a complete lack of effective policing
Not mention the p*** poor sentencing of serious driver crime
Shouldn't the country be focusing on those first?

That seems a bit of a false dichotomy or at least unnecessary serialisation of activities. They mostly require largely-independent resources, so we could do both simultaneously, or we could do one or the other, or neither - and it looks depressingly likely from all the people voting for police-cutting government and commissioners, combined with all the people - even on a cycling forum! - opposing stricter camera enforcement that it'll be neither.

This discussion reminds me of the Al Murray joke about "decent honest hard working normal tax paying law abiding ordinary people who don't want to pay their speeding fines".

No false dicotomy at all IMO,it makes perfect sense to me that you clampdown on those causing the most stress to other road users and crashes on the roads,which aren't those who let their speed slip to 1 or 2mph over the limit .

And it makes perfect sense to me that those causing the most crashes on the roads also let their speed slip over the limit! So if we hand out a few automatic points for such slip-ups and those who are merely careless will simply learn to take better care, while incorrigibly criminal drivers will have their licences suspended... but that's unpopular because motorists, including many who also cycle, now seem to regarding moderate speeding as a right!

Also, I disagree that we should clamp down on those causing the most stress to other road users because too many motorists seem to get very stressed about people merely cycling on the road!

[Bonefishblues]

Just need to stop painting them yellow - and have them not obvious.
Then they can be regularly moved around... The target has to be to have everyone assume that speed is always being monitored...

Heck - we could do without them, have speed sign reading cameras and GPS mapping etc combine and show the speed limit in each car, as well as automatically warning, and then issuing fines/points....

Surely that's much much easier said than done - these are big, heavy, firmly embedded pieces of kit. They aren't susceptible to being moved*. That's where mobile cameras come in.

*They are however very effective at slowing thraffic in a very limited but clearly identified location, which has its place.

[Bonefishblues]

And it makes perfect sense to me that those causing the most crashes on the roads also let their speed slip over the limit! So if we hand out a few automatic points for such slip-ups and those who are merely careless will simply learn to take better care, while incorrigibly criminal drivers will have their licences suspended... but that's unpopular because motorists, including many who also cycle, now seem to regarding moderate speeding as a right!

That's what our society is saying, in effect, since it is not policed, save in very very occasional circumstances. However, as R2 has patiently explained, and as your posts seem to tacitly accept, these are not the "villains" who cause serious harm on the roads, by and large.

[reohn2]

And it makes perfect sense to me that those causing the most crashes on the roads also let their speed slip over the limit! So if we hand out a few automatic points for such slip-ups and those who are merely careless will simply learn to take better care, while incorrigibly criminal drivers will have their licences suspended... but that's unpopular because motorists, including many who also cycle, now seem to regarding moderate speeding as a right!

Please read my previous posts about how accurate speed can be measured by both driver and enforcer. If it could be measured accurately enough to what degree of accuracy do you think would be fair,1mph,0.5mph,or 0.25mph perhaps and for how long 100yds,200,or 300 maybe?

Also, I disagree that we should clamp down on those causing the most stress to other road users because too many motorists seem to get very stressed about people merely cycling on the road!

And you disagree that those who cause the most stress to cyclist should be brought to book?
What is it exactly that you are saying?

[AlaninWales]

The sooner we make residential areas 20mph

I agree. In fact I would go as far to say that all speed limits should be abolished (because they are in essence unenforceable) and then work out how we make roads safe (not safer). The 20 mph would indicate the speed limit and then we decide how to achieve it.

Defining "residential area" is the hard part though, for example https://goo.gl/maps/LWXrJjHcJfx is not residential - no houses yet - but there's a poorly protected footpath joining the road on the left and a good case for slower than 30mph to be normal there (drivers behind don't like it when I slow down below 30, but I do so unless I can see the footpath is definitely clear - depends on sun direction, degree of mist etc).

Just a bit further along is residential though https://goo.gl/maps/S5HMyqZdgWz. Having passed all those houses with no set-back, narrow pavements etc which should require slow speeds, we get to houses on one side only, large set-backs and wide pavements. With straight roads (for Wales) it is clear whether or not there is any risk to driving at 30mph here. Where there is no risk to others, 30mph is acceptable,

Here https://goo.gl/maps/xU9aNAgmSUp - definitely residential and prime 20mph territory! I am normally driving at less than that (frequently a lot less).

But this https://goo.gl/maps/i6rtJTucwgw is a non-residential street: Most definitely a case for 20mph limit (or less!).

Residential / non-residential isn't really where the line needs to be drawn, is it?

[pwa]

Actually, if we are thinking ahead to a not-too-distant future when motor vehicles are physically unable to speed, speed limits should be constantly varying as the conditions vary. We will be able to do away with the nonsense of 30mph transitioning to 60mph with nothing in between. The limit could go from 30 to 31,32... And it could vary according to the time of day, the weather and any other variable. As a driver you could keep your foot down and just accept you are not going to go any faster than allowed, and do your bit by keeping an eye open for hazards. Speed cameras would be unnecessary, as would all traffic calming.

[reohn2]

Actually, if we are thinking ahead to a not-too-distant future when motor vehicles are physically unable to speed, speed limits should be constantly varying as the conditions vary. We will be able to do away with the nonsense of 30mph transitioning to 60mph with nothing in between. The limit could go from 30 to 31,32... And it could vary according to the time of day, the weather and any other variable. As a driver you could keep your foot down and just accept you are not going to go any faster than allowed, and do your bit by keeping an eye open for hazards. Speed cameras would be unnecessary, as would all traffic calming.

But we're not thinking ahead about a future world,but debating whether some stuffed shift Tory minister has any credibility in trying to push forward a zero tolerance on speeding.
Clearly he's someone who has either never lived in the real world,or just another government idiot trying to sound good.
The latter is the fact of the matter,because zero tolerance on speeding is an impossible objective,some people's opinion on this thread is at varience with that view.