Stonehenge Tunnel = £1,600,000,000 (yes, that's right)

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horizon
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Re: £1,600,000,000 (yes, that's right)

Post by horizon »

More from the BBC:

Highways England said the design would "restore the tranquil environment and setting of the monument".


This from an agency whose very existence is intended to create noise and destroy tranquility. You couldn't make it up. But they do - they must be laughing themselves silly at our gullibility.

Here's the link:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-42978234
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Re: £1,600,000,000 (yes, that's right)

Post by Tangled Metal »

OK I will state it. I believe this road is important. It is very much the sort of thing many people have wanted for years. Investment in infrastructure that grows the economy.

It's what Corbyn and Co plus his predecessors have called for for years now. Finally funding is being put in place to support development in relatively deprived areas of the country. So what if they took the most direct route. So what if it's been a long time coming. The only criminal thing is that such an important infrastructure never got put in back in the 60s. It's needed it for decades now.

The only reason I'm glad it's not been done in the 60s is that now they care more about what they cut through. I bet a lot of archeology would have been lost if it had been built back then.
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Re: £1,600,000,000 (yes, that's right)

Post by Cyril Haearn »

Tangled Metal wrote:OK I will state it. I believe this road is important. It is very much the sort of thing many people have wanted for years. Investment in infrastructure that grows the economy.

It's what Corbyn and Co plus his predecessors have called for for years now. Finally funding is being put in place to support development in relatively deprived areas of the country. So what if they took the most direct route. So what if it's been a long time coming. The only criminal thing is that such an important infrastructure never got put in back in the 60s. It's needed it for decades now.

The only reason I'm glad it's not been done in the 60s is that now they care more about what they cut through. I bet a lot of archeology would have been lost if it had been built back then.


New roads = more traffic, more senseless production at A and transport to B, long journeys by car just for a day trip or weekend become more attractive, people can live ever further from their work. Already the southwest plus Cornwall are adequately accessible
Economic growth is NOT good I think! (Maybe I will create a poll :wink: )
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Re: £1,600,000,000 (yes, that's right)

Post by Cyril Haearn »

horizon wrote:
ChrisButch wrote:
horizon wrote:The worst insult in all this is that they really think we believe them when they talk about saving Stonehenge - the old biddies in the National Trust have certainly been taken to the cleaners and back - they probably sold them some double-glazing while they were at it.


Stonehenge is in the care of English Heritage - formerly a Government agency which in 2015 became a Government-funded Trust - not the National Trust. There may be some 'old biddies' working for English Heritage, but I have yet to encounter them - they're a pretty hard-nosed commercial operation, in my experience.



I mentioned the National Trust because they are a significant backer of the tunnel scheme and a local landowner. English Heritage (not Historic England by the way) wasn't even worth the mention.

Oh and by the way, when will road building be funded from the sale of tea towels?

What is English Heritage?
What is Historic England?
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Si
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Re: £1,600,000,000 (yes, that's right)

Post by Si »

I think that there is a lot of confusion here as to what 'stonehenge' actually refers too. What we are talking about is a whole landscape which has no borders...it reaches out into the surrounding areas for miles around and cant be understood in isolation. We now understand that it extends welo beyond the WHS. Thus just because the tunnel entrances are not next to the henge itself or within the WHS doesnt mean that they wont do damage.

As to whether its adding to our knowledge, i think we have found more new monuments or features in the stonehenge envelope in the last few years than in all the time since serious study started. In just two weeks last summer we found five new monuments and sites that were not known before, at least one of which is likely to be of extreme importance and could rewrite our understanding of the area.

The Stonehenge area is nationally important because there were extrordinary things happening there from the mesolithic right through to the bronze age. Much of our understanding of these periods has come from the area due to the amount of activity that occured there and the often excellent presivation.

Contrary to what you might have been led to believe, you cant just do remote sensing on an area and then claim you know all there is to know about it. Remote sensing will give you a vague outline and depth of a feature but it wont tell you what it was, when it was made, what was done there, etc, it'll just give you something you can compare to other plots and allow yo to suggest that this featuremay besimmilar to that one.

Regarding not allowing people near the stones, thats sad but given the number of peoplewho go and the damage they were doing its understandable. Back in the 1970s there was a bloke there who would hire you a hammer so that you could chip bits off to take home!!!!

Anyhow, the current situation is untenable....not just for the site but due to the massive traffic tailbacks there. Some thing needs yo be done to reduce the traffic levels. A tunnel is a stop gap solution....when traffic increases again you cant just add another lane to a tunnel!

As it happens im on a jolly on thursday, taking a load of undergrads to stonehenge for their landscape archaeology module......making the most of it while its still there :-)
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Re: £1,600,000,000 (yes, that's right)

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Tangled Metal wrote:The alternative? Not build it? So let's take out the A1 or M1. What do you think the surrounding roads would be like if they were never built. Or M25, or any main trunk route. Perhaps we should cut Cornwall and the whole southwest off so no tourists, no business and no traffic?

Most southwestern traffic already uses the M4/M5 route because it's faster from most places and more robust. Even the prettier M3/M27/A31/A35 coastal route is often better than the A30/A303 one although it's longer and goes wiggly at the western end before Exeter.

What closing the A303 would hurt isn't Cornwall as much as south Somerset and central Wiltshire, but enabling more through traffic isn't going to help them much either. Has someone studied this option? Stonehenge WHS will still be a visitor attraction so removing a through route won't kill the area - if anything, the large roads now being only for WHS access could help it.

And we've an example of a short section of closure in this area, haven't we? I'm sure people were predicting the end of civilisation when the A360 to the north of the stones closed. Doesn't seem to have happened. Have the increases in Stonehenge visitor spend outweighed any local extra congestion cost?
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Re: £1,600,000,000 (yes, that's right)

Post by ChrisButch »

Cyril Haearn wrote:]
What is English Heritage?
What is Historic England?


http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/about-us/our-history/
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Re: £1,600,000,000 (yes, that's right)

Post by ChrisButch »

mjr wrote:
What closing the A303 would hurt isn't Cornwall as much as south Somerset and central Wiltshire

That argument gets short shrift in Cornwall
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Re: £1,600,000,000 (yes, that's right)

Post by mjr »

ChrisButch wrote:
mjr wrote:
What closing the A303 would hurt isn't Cornwall as much as south Somerset and central Wiltshire

That argument gets short shrift in Cornwall

I don't doubt it. The media loves roads. Doesn't make it incorrect, though.
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Re: £1,600,000,000 (yes, that's right)

Post by Vorpal »

All that road-building does is generate traffic. Please don't.
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Re: £1,600,000,000 (yes, that's right)

Post by horizon »

ChrisButch wrote:
mjr wrote:
What closing the A303 would hurt isn't Cornwall as much as south Somerset and central Wiltshire

That argument gets short shrift in Cornwall



Cornwall buys into the "strategic link" nonsense as much as anywhere does. In my Cornish fishing village where I live, visitors used to stand five deep on the quayside in the 1950s. Not any more. Our own house used to be a B&B - the place was heaving. No M4, no M5, no M3, no dualled A303. They got here by train and still do. They even now have the M4/M5 now as mjr pointed out above. The A303 was never a strategic route - the A35 was (unbelievably) and later the A30. The A303 was a huge mistake - it has already been abandoned this side of Honiton leaving the privately built Exeter - Honiton stretch an embarrassing white elephant. It could never be built but Highways England (prodded by the lobbyists) lives on in a fantasy world where landscapes don't matter, history is irrelevant and the population a cowed and stupid mass. Well maybe this tragic farce is playing out its last act and £1.6bn is just a tad too much for a schoolboy dream.
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Re: £1,600,000,000 (yes, that's right)

Post by Cyril Haearn »

They used to get there by train..
The LSWR ran the ACE, Atlantic Coast Express, from Waterloo London, a dozen coaches, one coach to Lyme, one to Exmouth, one to Barnstaple, one to Padstow..
Why, trains still run from England into Cornwall!
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Re: £1,600,000,000 (yes, that's right)

Post by Cyril Haearn »

Si wrote:I think that there is a lot of confusion here as to what 'stonehenge' actually refers too. What we are talking about is a whole landscape which has no borders...it reaches out into the surrounding areas for miles around and cant be understood in isolation. We now understand that it extends welo beyond the WHS. Thus just because the tunnel entrances are not next to the henge itself or within the WHS doesnt mean that they wont do damage.

As to whether its adding to our knowledge, i think we have found more new monuments or features in the stonehenge envelope in the last few years than in all the time since serious study started. In just two weeks last summer we found five new monuments and sites that were not known before, at least one of which is likely to be of extreme importance and could rewrite our understanding of the area.

..
..

As it happens im on a jolly on thursday, taking a load of undergrads to stonehenge for their landscape archaeology module......making the most of it while its still there :-)

What are the new discoveries, how could they rewrite our understanding?

Looking forward to a report from your 'jolly' :)
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Re: £1,600,000,000 (yes, that's right)

Post by ChrisButch »

horizon wrote:The A303 was a huge mistake - it has already been abandoned this side of Honiton leaving the privately built Exeter - Honiton stretch an embarrassing white elephant.

Shouldn't that be 'this side of Ilminster'? Although dualling through the Blackdown Hills has (thnkfully) been abandoned, there will now be a dualled link from the Ilminster bypass to the M5 at Taunton, on the A 358, which is already used by most of the traffic heading down the A303 for the far southwest (and which, incidentally, is built over an abandoned railway line for much of its length).
You mention the railborne visitors of the past. Indeed. With an intelligent approach to infrastructure, we would long ago have had rail electrification right down to Penzance and an alternative inland line which would have bypassed the fragile and slow passage round the Devon coast, and rail would still be the obvious choice for most (thought not, I fear, for the second-homers arriving at weekends with their 4x4s stuffed with provisions bought upcountry.) With a fraction of the HS2 investment.
There again, if we had the Norwegian approach, with their insouciant undersea tunnels to connect islands with only a few thousand inhabitants, there would now be a tunnel beginning far away from Stonehenge and its equally priceless wider environment, and spiralling gently down to a deep level way below any risk to the archaeology.
If, if, if...
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Re: £1,600,000,000 (yes, that's right)

Post by Cyril Haearn »

Vorpal wrote:All that road-building does is generate traffic. Please don't.

What about Norway, the Promised Land, building tunnels under the sea for a few thousand inhabitants?
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