Vorpal wrote:I cannot hear other vehicles when I am going fast downhill due to wind noise. I often do not hear them when they are following another vehicle. I cannot hear electric cars over the wind noise in in my ears at ~18 mph.
I look for them. I look before I move out. I look before I turn. I look when I am approaching a junction. I do that even if I can hear them, because sometimes the driver of a following vehicle has done something stupid or dangerous.
I don't want electric vehicles making noise. I like that they are quiet. There is enough noise already.
Spot on!
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
Steady rider wrote:by Vorpal » 9 Feb 2018, 6:50am wrote
I cannot hear other vehicles when I am going fast downhill due to wind noise. I often do not hear them when they are following another vehicle. I cannot hear electric cars over the wind noise in in my ears at ~18 mph.
I look for them. I look before I move out. I look before I turn. I look when I am approaching a junction. I do that even if I can hear them, because sometimes the driver of a following vehicle has done something stupid or dangerous.
I don't want electric vehicles making noise. I like that they are quiet. There is enough noise already.
If using a road with a traffic flow rate of 10 vehicles per minute, one every 6 seconds, you could be spending quite some time looking back and miss a pot hole, and end up not so happy. Most of the time I do not need to look back as I can hear approaching traffic, so it gives a good indication of what is best to do and when to do it. If a driver is going too fast and the engine is riving you can hear this and know to take more care.
A rear view mirror(RVM) is a far better tool to check what's behind me than my ears,shoulder "lifesaver" checks are done before manoeuvres and potholes are checked for on a regular basis 50m or more in front of me so I don't make sudden avoiding manoeuvres,same applies when driving my car. After buying and using a RVM on the bike over fifteen years ago,I wondered how I managed without one.
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
I try to minimise the time in the central position for turning, if riding alone, riding in a group it is a bit different, depends on circumstances.
RVM is another topic for research perhaps. Data on the overall accident rate for users of RVMs compared with non-users. Hardly used in the Netherland that seem to have a lower accident rate per billion km. On occasions they may well provide a benefit but actual accident data may be useful to see. Then again users of RVM may also use hi vis, flashing lights or ride more carefully, so accident data would only be an indication.
Last edited by Steady rider on 9 Feb 2018, 10:24am, edited 2 times in total.
A mirror might be good, and one can look too Maybe quiet vehicles should be speed limited If deaf people are endangered this is another "tragedy of the commons", like many other situations, the weak/vulnerable are endangered by the powerful
We can see it coming this time, it will be no surprise
Entertainer, juvenile, curmudgeon, PoB, 30120 Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott We love safety cameras, we hate bullies
It's strange how some people get on with mirrors and some don't. I've not used one for years, but I did give them a go about twenty years ago. There were some new lightweight ones on the market then, with slightly convex lenses. I forget the brand, but they were raved about by Cycling Plus magazine, which I read in those days. I found that the juddering / vibration in the bars made the image next to useless. I just could not make out what I was looking at without having to look at it too long. Also, the mirrors stuck out and got damaged too easily.
pwa wrote:Nobody here seems concerned about what blind people might feel about this.
TBH I think tyre noise is the greatest indicator of an approaching vehicle,and slow ICE power vehicles,especially modern cars are very at slow speeds.But as has been posted above vehicle drivers should be more careful around people with a white stick or a blind dog. I agree with others up thread who have posted that making vehicles deliberately noisy is just a way of absolving drivers from blaim and placing more onus on vulnerable road users to "keep out of the way",tail wagging dog scenario..
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
I first realised how much I was relying on vehicle sound when I began to wear a helmet the wind noise blanked out much of the sound from following traffic. (I've also a sneaky feeling that the wind noise contributed to the deterioration of my hearing but that's not the point here.)
IMO, the minimum noise proposal is one of those things which seems superficially attractive but is really no more than transferring the onus from the driver. This is particularly relevant to cyclists. First, because that onus should remain with the driver. Then, one of the attractions of the pedal cycle is its quietness, especially when compared to motor traffic. It's unfortunate that that quietness is sometimes the source of criticism eg see the various threads on no annoying horse riders, Isobel (necessary on a bike) and so on.
Kwackers comment about a lolly stick in the spokes sums it up. ============================================================ PS
PWA I'm concerned about the safety of all road users, including those with impaired vision.
As a cyclist, what do you do with regard to blind pedestrians?
pwa wrote:Nobody here seems concerned about what blind people might feel about this.
TBH I think tyre noise is the greatest indicator of an approaching vehicle,and slow ICE power vehicles,especially modern cars are very at slow speeds.But as has been posted above vehicle drivers should be more careful around people with a white stick or a blind dog. I agree with others up thread who have posted that making vehicles deliberately noisy is just a way of absolving drivers from blaim and placing more onus on vulnerable road users to "keep out of the way",tail wagging dog scenario..
I'd feel a lot more comfortable if electric vehicles made some noise beyond tyre noise. On a windy day we all make allowances for not being able to hear traffic as well as on a calm day. It's a pain, but we do it. Very quiet vehicles would extend that difficulty to every day. On a quiet lane, on a lovely calm day, I can climb a hill in a relaxed way knowing that the fact that all I can hear is my own bike and the birds means that there is nothing bigger than another cyclist about to try to pass me. With cars that are silent apart from tyre noise that feeling of security will be gone. And that will detract from my enjoyment.
I don't want electric vehicles to be especially noisy, I just want some noise built in.
Last edited by pwa on 9 Feb 2018, 10:54am, edited 1 time in total.
When cycling in Italy on quite country roads in the Tuscan hills,it wasn't unusual to have drivers give a friendly toot toot on the horn some 200m+ before overtaking from behind to warn of their approach,but then when we parked the tandem for a coffee it wasn't unusual to have an admiring crowd around it when we came back,unlike the sometimes derogatory comments or asking "how much" when in the UK. A different outlook on life........
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
pwa wrote:I'd feel a lot more comfortable if electric vehicles made some noise beyond tyre noise. On a windy day we all make allowances for not being able to hear traffic as well as on a calm day. It's a pain, but we do it. Very quiet vehicles would extend that difficulty to every day. On a quiet lane, on a lovely calm day, I can climb a hill in a relaxed way knowing that the fact that all I can hear is my own bike and the birds means that there is nothing bigger than another cyclist about to try to pass me. With cars that are silent apart from tyre noise that feeling of security will be gone. And that will detract from my enjoyment.
I don't want electric vehicles to be especially noisy, I just want some noise built in.
The tyre noise will alert you. If you've ever had a pedestrian step out right in front of you when on the bike you'll know the fear/concern as you quickly decide to swerve or brake . If electric cars are as quite as you assume they'll be,pedestrians will learn PDQ to "look before they leap" which will have positive spinoffs for cyclist/pedestrian encounters
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
Appears dated research. Perhaps if the noise from tyres were monitored and this fell below certain limits at specified speeds, then added sounds similar to tyre noise could be added.
Helmets may also come into the equation, perhaps in two ways, noise is one aspect and the other seems to be helmeted may be less inclined to look behind. Research on both parts could be useful.
pwa wrote:I'd feel a lot more comfortable if electric vehicles made some noise beyond tyre noise. On a windy day we all make allowances for not being able to hear traffic as well as on a calm day. It's a pain, but we do it. Very quiet vehicles would extend that difficulty to every day. On a quiet lane, on a lovely calm day, I can climb a hill in a relaxed way knowing that the fact that all I can hear is my own bike and the birds means that there is nothing bigger than another cyclist about to try to pass me. With cars that are silent apart from tyre noise that feeling of security will be gone. And that will detract from my enjoyment.
I don't want electric vehicles to be especially noisy, I just want some noise built in.
The tyre noise will alert you. If you've ever had a pedestrian step out right in front of you when on the bike you'll know the fear/concern as you quickly decide to swerve or brake . If electric cars are as quite as you assume they'll be,pedestrians will learn PDQ to "look before they leap" which will have positive spinoffs for cyclist/pedestrian encounters
But again, how will a blind person feel about very quiet cars? I don't like the idea, but for them it must be a real worry. They won't want to have to rely on the drivers having learned to be more careful.
.