Bus lane confusion.

thirdcrank
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Bus lane confusion.

Post by thirdcrank »

A report here that:

Almost 1,000 motorists per day have been fined in just five months for driving along bus lanes on a Manchester road.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-ma ... r-43168921

Apparently, the independent adjudicator has ruled that
bus gate signs had too much information on so were confusing


As a critic of confusing signs, I'm cautious about how I view this but perhaps it's worth remembering that whenever there's any sort of survey or quiz about road sign recognition, the "flying motorbike" is the widely-used sign that confuses a lot of people.

I don't know if there's more to this than meets the eye. ie Is it really about a lot of drivers over a period of several months being confused as the image with this report suggests, or is there something else, such as an expectation of there not really being any enforcement ie camera signs are a bluff? I believe that around here, quite a lot of drivers are caught turning into bus lanes just before they end to allow left-turning at a junction. Obviously, there are horror storeys eg somebody with a scrapped moped on the Isle of Skye (or somesuch combination of distance and vehicle unlikely to be in leeds) received a Leeds bus lane infringement notice when the images showed something else, and it was reported that somebody queuing in traffic in Bradford received a notice for stopping at a bus stop. Whatever the facts with these occasional stories, they don't excuse or indeed explain substantial non-compliance.

PS I've posted several times about a similar situation involving Lendal Bridge in York eg
viewtopic.php?p=1055659#p1055659
reohn2
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Re: Bus lane confusion.

Post by reohn2 »

Im sure there are a small minority cases of confusion,but I'm convinced the majority of convictions are for "don't give a monkey's" drivers who think they won't be caught and would rather save themselves at most 1 or 2 minutes travel time if that.
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The utility cyclist
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Re: Bus lane confusion.

Post by The utility cyclist »

Apparently they were letting people off when the lanes were first put in and well you know, motorists, will always claim it's unfair blah blah blah :evil: Funny though that as a % 1000/week isn't that many, everyone else seems to have got the message so no excuses.
Put armed police at the entrance, that'll get the senses working.
The plans for the cycle lane don't look too bad, shame they are letting taxis down there though.
pwa
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Re: Bus lane confusion.

Post by pwa »

Those signs didn't look overly confusing to me. When I see bus lane sings and I'm driving I instantly look for the days and times it applies. It can be a bit more confusing in Wales, though, because if your eye initially latches onto the Welsh language version you can waste a second or so before getting the English version, by which time you may have to use your eyes for actually driving. I do miss the message of some wordy road signs for that reason.
MikeF
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Re: Bus lane confusion.

Post by MikeF »

The mother-of-one told BBC Radio Manchester: "I just went in not seeing the signs. :shock: What else didn't she see?

"The adjudicator said the bus gate signs had too much information on so were confusing, and where I accessed the road the signs were obscured by flower beds.
"It's so confusing but everyone should appeal."
Many motorists seem to be confused by speed limit signs as well. :wink:
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MikeF
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Re: Bus lane confusion.

Post by MikeF »

From streetview it looks as though some fairly major cycling infrastructure has been installed along Oxford Road. Looks to be of a high standard.

This is streetview before the prohibited section. Seems to be fairly clear that most traffic needs to turn right, but the sign on the pavement seems a little way from drivers' line of sight.
"It takes a genius to spot the obvious" - my old physics master.
I don't peddle bikes.
thirdcrank
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Re: Bus lane confusion.

Post by thirdcrank »

Although this arrangement is intended to help buses and, perhaps as a side-effect cyclists, IMO it's absolutely central to any policy to reduce emissions by getting people out of cars. Physically reducing the convenience of car travel to the benefit of other modes is all that will work.
reohn2
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Re: Bus lane confusion.

Post by reohn2 »

thirdcrank wrote:Although this arrangement is intended to help buses and, perhaps as a side-effect cyclists, IMO it's absolutely central to any policy to reduce emissions by getting people out of cars. Physically reducing the convenience of car travel to the benefit of other modes is all that will work.

Spot on!
Stopping car use in towns and city centres is the only way forward if the countr is serious about a better environment for all citizens.But where ever its tried the motorists moan,and the worst is they more often than not get their own way.
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Pete Owens
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Re: Bus lane confusion.

Post by Pete Owens »

MikeF wrote:From streetview it looks as though some fairly major cycling infrastructure has been installed along Oxford Road. Looks to be of a high standard.

The farcilies are godawful; glass strewn channels wending their way through the throngs of students using the very many bus stops along the route - each equipped with a sequence of chicanes, humps & rumble strips.

On the other hand the carriageway itself is now very pleasant, with a 20mph limit and a low volume of traffic. See:
https://www.cyclestreets.net/location/87799/
MikeF
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Re: Bus lane confusion.

Post by MikeF »

Pete Owens wrote:
MikeF wrote:From streetview it looks as though some fairly major cycling infrastructure has been installed along Oxford Road. Looks to be of a high standard.

The farcilies are godawful; glass strewn channels wending their way through the throngs of students using the very many bus stops along the route - each equipped with a sequence of chicanes, humps & rumble strips.

On the other hand the carriageway itself is now very pleasant, with a 20mph limit and a low volume of traffic. See:
https://www.cyclestreets.net/location/87799/
What are they for in a cycle track?
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Vorpal
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Re: Bus lane confusion.

Post by Vorpal »

I don't think those signs are the least bit confusing. At the very least, someone who sees the flying motorbike sign, and isn't sure if the restriction applies to them, shouldn't enter.

Other than that, they can always have look sometime as pedestrians. If they can't figure it out when they have time to read the sign, they shouldn't be driving.
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Vorpal
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Re: Bus lane confusion.

Post by Vorpal »

MikeF wrote:
Pete Owens wrote:The farcilies are godawful; glass strewn channels wending their way through the throngs of students using the very many bus stops along the route - each equipped with a sequence of chicanes, humps & rumble strips.

On the other hand the carriageway itself is now very pleasant, with a 20mph limit and a low volume of traffic. See:
https://www.cyclestreets.net/location/87799/
What are they for in a cycle track?

To slow down cyclists, of course. I had ECC tell me on several occasions that they had to put up chicanes to slow cyclists and keep kids from cycling out onto the road without looking.

I asked when they were going to put speed bumps on the approach to roundabouts to slow drivers and keep them from going out into the roundabouts without looking, but they didn't seem to find my questions amusing. :?
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Cyril Haearn
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Re: Bus lane confusion.

Post by Cyril Haearn »

I found myself driving illegally in a bus lane in London
A motorcycle constable pulled me over
'Can't you read? That's a bus lane! Get aaaht of it' he said
+1 for such efficient use of police time, and no therapy offered!
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thirdcrank
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Re: Bus lane confusion.

Post by thirdcrank »

This bus lane confusion seems to be a regular issue whenever there's any actual enforcement: ie local authority uses enforcement cameras, rather than police occasionally "using their discretion" to waggle an admonitory finger but in reality doing nothing. Occasional enforcement "crackdowns" are futile IMO.

I've mentioned confusion at Lendal Bridge in York and here's another from Preston.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-la ... e-42353697

I don't know much ie nothing, about the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, but I can see a clear division between tickets being issued wrongly by individuals keen to meet targets and officially erected signs complying with TSRGD. Does this body include a few car-driving dolts who themselves don't understand the meaning of a sign like the flying motorbike or is there a real problem which they can see with a national perspective? If it's the latter, then they should surely be contributing to the design of some better signs.

https://www.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/

This confusion / unwillingness to check detail, with part-time prohibitions is not new. Once upon a time we had broken yellow lines to indicate a prohibition during "less than the working day" but many drivers believed that they meant some sort of a weaker prohibition - the old joke about double yellow lines meaning no parking at all, at all. (I have old but first-hand experience of issuing tickets to those unlawfully parked on broken yellow lines and I rememeber the outrage it provoked.) Eventually, the broken yellow lines were scrapped and you don't seem to get many single yellow lines these days. It seems TfL has introduced red lines and so it goes on.
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Re: Bus lane confusion.

Post by Vorpal »

I used to regularly see private motor vehicles in the bus lane in Chelmsford, and IMO, it was pretty clear they weren't supposed to be there, if only because queuing traffic in one lane and no one in the other usually has a reason for it :roll:
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
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