Self driving car kills pedestrian.

AlaninWales
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Re: Self driving car kills pedestrian.

Post by AlaninWales »

Flinders wrote:I'm all for new technology when it works, but so far it looks to me like self-driving cars ought to be banned for good. Firstly, it isn't yet anything like good enough for the job, and secondly, it's clear that even at this early stage it's clear that humans are incapable of paying attention when it is in operation (and humans will always need to be alert to its failures).

I think it's a waste of time, money and effort- more of all three spent on enforcement of road laws, and on developing systems to assist and alert drivers, rather then let them off the hook, would be a better way.

Well they won't all be banned, it is clear that there are going to be more and more independantly moving machines (not just cars) in offices and in public. Research on how to ensure these interact with people is ongoing and rapidly progressing (a simple search of technology publishers will tell you that). Given that these will interact with that most unpredictable of objects, the human pedestrian, their logic will also be useful on the highway.

And this case does not prove that the technology (which is changing rapidly) "isn't yet anything like good enough for the job"; it proves that when a development company looking for fast results to 'disrupt' the business model of its competitors, cuts corners and deliberately reduces the safety of the logic in use, bad things happen. Uber had already been banned from testing their (deliberately risk-taking) software in several states, this just increases the difficulty they will have making progress on their 'make money and cost lives' model. It will also cause others to reconsider any moves in that direction (which is a good outcome).
thirdcrank
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Re: Self driving car kills pedestrian.

Post by thirdcrank »

Mike Sales wrote: ... The person discussing this suggested stricter controls on pedestrians crossing might be necessary, to avoid the traffic being disrupted by pedestrians. ...


IMO this is at the heart of it, although similar disruption would obviously be caused by driver-controlled vehicles in just the same way. Instead of it being the drivers of commercial vehicles and bangers forcing their way out into moving traffic, any driver could do it with impunity. We could end up with a two-tier system where the proletariat and cargo were ferried about in subservient driverless vehicles while the self-appointed VIP's would have manual override to exercise their dominance by exploiting the deference of fully-driverless vehicles.

Cyclists were also mentioned in passing.


Expect a sprouting of farcilities to get cyclists out of the road.
Mike Sales
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Re: Self driving car kills pedestrian.

Post by Mike Sales »

thirdcrank wrote:We could end up with a two-tier system where the proletariat and cargo were ferried about in subservient driverless vehicles while the self-appointed VIP's would have manual override to exercise their dominance by exploiting the deference of fully-driverless vehicles.



Rather like Zil lanes.
ZiL lanes are lanes on some principal roads in Moscow dedicated to vehicles carrying senior government officials. Known officially in Russian as rezervniye polosy ("reserved lanes") notably but not exclusively used by ZiL and Chaika brand limousines transporting high ranking government and military functionaries of the ...
It's the same the whole world over
It's the poor what gets the blame
It's the rich what gets the pleasure
Isn't it a blooming shame?
thirdcrank
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Re: Self driving car kills pedestrian.

Post by thirdcrank »

Mike Sales wrote: ... Rather like Zil lanes.
ZiL lanes are lanes on some principal roads in Moscow dedicated to vehicles carrying senior government officials. Known officially in Russian as rezervniye polosy ("reserved lanes") notably but not exclusively used by ZiL and Chaika brand limousines transporting high ranking government and military functionaries of the ...


Exactly, and the other linked example from Russia is oligarchs etc being able to fit blue beacons to their cars to gain priority.

=================================================================

Migalki:-

Flashing light traffic dodge leaves Moscow's motorists screaming blue murder
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 49628.html
Last edited by thirdcrank on 10 May 2018, 1:56pm, edited 1 time in total.
Psamathe
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Re: Self driving car kills pedestrian.

Post by Psamathe »

AlaninWales wrote:
Flinders wrote:I'm all for new technology when it works, but so far it looks to me like self-driving cars ought to be banned for good.......

Well they won't all be banned, it is clear that there are going to be more and more independantly moving machines (not just cars) in offices and in public. Research on how to ensure these interact with people is ongoing and rapidly progressing (a simple search of technology publishers will tell you that).....
What worries me about that research (in a general sense) is that it is targeted at maximum financial profit rather than benefit for society. And I worry that the "solution" from maximising profit will be somewhat different from one maximising "benefit for society" (and guess who will benefit most from the "maximum profit" route).

And I worry that our regulators seem (at least some) to be "in the pockets" of the commercial profit seeking developers so there may be a big risk that public protections will be inadequate e.g.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/mar/28/uber-arizona-secret-self-driving-program-governor-doug-ducey wrote:A cozy relationship with governor Doug Ducey enabled an autonomous program with limited expert oversight...

Uber’s behind-the-scenes efforts to court Ducey, and the governor’s apparent willingness to satisfy the company, is made clear in the emails, which were sent between 2015 and 2007 and obtained by the Guardian through public records requests.

They reveal how Uber offered workspace for Ducey’s staff in San Francisco, praised the governor lavishly, and promised to bring money and jobs to his state. Ducey, meanwhile, helped Uber deal with other officials in Arizona, issued decrees that were friendly to the company, tweeted out an advert at the company’s request, and even seems to have been open to wearing an Uber T-shirt at an official event.
...
However the correspondence between Ducey and Uber will now throw a spotlight on the Arizona governor’s office – and raise questions about his apparently laissez-faire approach to safety. While Arizona’s neighbour California has some of the toughest self-driving regulations in America, other states, such as Michigan and Florida, are at least as permissive as Arizona, with few restrictions and little oversight of highly automated vehicles.
I'm not suggesting any "cause" in the case of the particular fatality but it does illustrate the how politicians can be "influenced".

Ian
AlaninWales
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Re: Self driving car kills pedestrian.

Post by AlaninWales »

Psamathe wrote:What worries me about that research (in a general sense) is that it is targeted at maximum financial profit rather than benefit for society. And I worry that the "solution" from maximising profit will be somewhat different from one maximising "benefit for society" (and guess who will benefit most from the "maximum profit" route).

And I worry that our regulators seem (at least some) to be "in the pockets" of the commercial profit seeking developers so there may be a big risk that public protections will be inadequate e.g.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/mar/28/uber-arizona-secret-self-driving-program-governor-doug-ducey wrote:A cozy relationship with governor Doug Ducey enabled an autonomous program with limited expert oversight...

Uber’s behind-the-scenes efforts to court Ducey, and the governor’s apparent willingness to satisfy the company, is made clear in the emails, which were sent between 2015 and 2007 and obtained by the Guardian through public records requests.

They reveal how Uber offered workspace for Ducey’s staff in San Francisco, praised the governor lavishly, and promised to bring money and jobs to his state. Ducey, meanwhile, helped Uber deal with other officials in Arizona, issued decrees that were friendly to the company, tweeted out an advert at the company’s request, and even seems to have been open to wearing an Uber T-shirt at an official event.
...
However the correspondence between Ducey and Uber will now throw a spotlight on the Arizona governor’s office – and raise questions about his apparently laissez-faire approach to safety. While Arizona’s neighbour California has some of the toughest self-driving regulations in America, other states, such as Michigan and Florida, are at least as permissive as Arizona, with few restrictions and little oversight of highly automated vehicles.
I'm not suggesting any "cause" in the case of the particular fatality but it does illustrate the how politicians can be "influenced".

Ian

Those are problems stemming from the way our society is organised though, rather than with the research (or indeed the aims of many of the researchers).

I agree that this spotlights the relationship between Uber and Arizona's politicians. One of the problems here is that people elect politicians who promise more growth and more jobs (and Uber were as you note, justifying their behaviour with the promise of more jobs). Meanwhile the more technologically noted California (which has its own problems) had laws too strict to allow what Uber was doing. That this "laissez-faire attitude" in Arizona is under the spotlight is (as I said) a good outcome from a tragic event. Hopefully this will deter others from following Uber's cutting of corners (I mean, getting the system to ignore positive detection of an object in the cars path? That's deliberately building in the meat-brain's habit of staring dumbly ahead in a trance which lies behind so many SMIDSYs! :twisted: ).
Cyril Haearn
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Re: Self driving car kills pedestrian.

Post by Cyril Haearn »

There are many parallels to the time of the first motor vehicles

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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Self driving car kills pedestrian.

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Not a software glitch...
A deliberate dialling down of the safety systems...

The details aren’t entirely clear. But it seems like the software that is used to process incoming data from sensors to recognize objects was tampered with by Uber’s engineers. The sensitivity was dialed down to reduce “false positives,” aka objects that the car shouldn’t stop for, like plastic bags. Effectively, Uber's techies were fed up with the computer-controlled vehicles stopping for trash and other minor things in the road, so dialed down the AI to ignore them.

Unfortunately, that meant that the car failed to recognise a woman pushing her bike across the road, and slammed into her
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
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[XAP]Bob
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Re: Self driving car kills pedestrian.

Post by [XAP]Bob »

Latest updates - the car saw the woman, identified her as "unknown', 'another vehicle', then 'person with bike' with plenty of time to stop.

The emergency stop control had been *disabled* in order to provide a smoother ride.

Not only that, but the 'safety driver' has had to take on the role of vehicle engineer as well - she wasn't looking at her phone, she was looking at a touchscreen to mark interesting logs - it's part of her job.

I can't think of anything other than first degree murder charges for the whole CxO team at this point...
A shortcut has to be a challenge, otherwise it would just be the way. No situation is so dire that panic cannot make it worse.
There are two kinds of people in this world: those can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Vorpal
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Re: Self driving car kills pedestrian.

Post by Vorpal »

[XAP]Bob wrote:Not only that, but the 'safety driver' has had to take on the role of vehicle engineer as well - she wasn't looking at her phone, she was looking at a touchscreen to mark interesting logs - it's part of her job.

I can't think of anything other than first degree murder charges for the whole CxO team at this point...

It's possible that the driver will be charged with inattentive driving or something like that. If they bring charges against anyone at Uber, they are unlikely to be more severe than manslaughter. Companies and company executives are seldom charged with murder in the USA, even when they are willfully negligent.

Usually what happens, is the victims' families are offered ridiculous amounts of money in no-fault settlements, and the various governments involved decide that no laws were broken, so they can't do anything. NTSB will likely issue some guidelines, but there probably won't be any laws passed until more people die.

Here are some thoughts about whether GM could be charged based on their failure to recall cars with faulty ignition switches http://fortune.com/2014/06/05/could-gm- ... th-murder/
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reohn2
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Re: Self driving car kills pedestrian.

Post by reohn2 »

USA,land of the free(to maim and kill for a fast buck....) :?
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De Sisti
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Re: Self driving car kills pedestrian.

Post by De Sisti »

Ellieb wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/business-44460980/this-car-is-on-autopilot-what-happens-next
This is a bit scary


And so is this one.
thirdcrank
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Re: Self driving car kills pedestrian.

Post by thirdcrank »

There's been a media release from the ABI doing the rounds of the business pages and in short, they want clarity about autonomous vehicles and "driver assist." Their gripe is that some manufacturers are using expressions like "autopilot" in a misleading way.
mercalia
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Re: Self driving car kills pedestrian.

Post by mercalia »

Ellieb wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/business-44460980/this-car-is-on-autopilot-what-happens-next
This is a bit scary


not very clever is it?
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