Self driving car kills pedestrian.

Vorpal
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Re: Self driving car kills pedestrian.

Postby Vorpal » 23 Mar 2018, 9:11am

thirdcrank wrote:Society is already used to the idea that motor traffic is not risk-free. All that's going to happen is a balancing act to see how much risk is acceptable with this developing technology. Cue for somebody to mention Adams Risk. Many users of these vehicles won't want them slowing to a crawl every time they approach some potential problem with vulnerable users. They'll expect the vehicle to be as selfish as they are, with the added advantage of being able to blame the vehicle if something goes wrong.

I could easily imagine the emergence of a two tier system where your basic autonomous vehicle, including most goods vehicles, would be "deferential" to something more forceful. Emergency vehicles would need priority, but there will almost certainly be a method, formal or otherwise, for other important traffic to have priority. I'm thinking of a variation of the Russian migalka, the blue light fitted to the limo's of important officials, also available to the self-important rich. No need for all that nee-naw, just a system for one car to tell another to get out of the *********ing road.


gaz wrote:Some interesting comments here: http://bristolcars.blogspot.co.uk/2018/ ... meone.html


Has some similar observations.

While the US American approach is likely to be 'blame the victim', I don't think that this will be an acceptable approach in all European countries. In particular, I think it will fail the test in the Netherlands, Denmark, and in Volvo's home, Sweden. One of the advantages of globalisation is that an approach required for Sweden, Denmark, and the Netherlands will influence European law (i.e. a new set of directives covering autonomous vehicle safety) and incident investigations, which will in turn influence the global market.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
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thirdcrank
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Re: Self driving car kills pedestrian.

Postby thirdcrank » 23 Mar 2018, 10:04am

From the efficiency perspective, rather than safety, an obvious winner would be vehicles programmed to give priority to public transport, although it may not be a selling point for car dealers. Of course, we'd still have cyclists pinging away at eventually non-existent bus-drivers and looking for an argument with the empty cab. :wink:

merseymouth
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Re: Self driving car kills pedestrian.

Postby merseymouth » 24 Mar 2018, 11:54pm

Hello there, I think that the most telling point in all of this is that society apparently has accepted that the use of motor traffic has risk implications that it accepts?
Well, I don't accept that premis! I believe that we should seriously bear down on the issue of death on our roads. It seems we expect to kill over 3'000 people per annum on the roads, yet when one person dies on the UK's railways we fall like a ton of bricks on the particular company/driver involved?
We now seek to use technology to make up the shortfall in driver standards or concentration, yet put more and more distraction within the transport module!
I no longer have a car, but when I did it had no radio, no WiFi, with a total of six, yes 6, switches to help or distract the driver. Add in SatNav if you must, but only programme it whilst the engine is not running.
Yet when I now need a car my hire car not only has a plethora of switches/controls, there is no standard placement of the vital safety controls!
Can't even lock some of them properly, testing to check that it is locked merely opens the door??? One has to walk away in blind faith!
So why not give up this obsession with techno trash, simplify the car and more importantly enforce proper safety standards whilst employing human control.
If a driver gets things wrong pursue the cause, then take action to improve the standard/behaviour of that driver! Don't just accept mass carnage as a price we must be prepared to pay for our freedom to drive. We expect buses and trains to be operated with total safety in mind, why not our individual rot box?
TTFN MM

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Re: Self driving car kills pedestrian.

Postby Bonefishblues » 25 Mar 2018, 9:28am

There is some implication that the footage released misrepresents how dark this road actually is. Here is recently taken footage:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XOVxSCG8u0

danhopgood
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Re: Self driving car kills pedestrian.

Postby danhopgood » 29 Mar 2018, 12:48pm

I'm a doom-monger by nature. The way I see the future of driverless technology going is this:

Development is overwhelmingly USA based, where there's already a culture of driving everywhere. There's already a lot of big money going into development - and the developers want a quick return on investment. There will be pressure brought to bear on politicians by the developers to bring the technology to market. The risks to "outliers" like cyclists and pedestrians are the hard to do bits in safety management. Therefore there'll be pressure to overcome that problem quickly - and the easiest thing to do is just remove the problem. To say to pedestrians - you may only cross at a designated crossing point and to cyclists no you can't cycle down that road as it's reserved for autonomous vehicles. The ban on cyclists would start on high speed roads and gradually work its way down to local roads. A similar thought process has already started with the probable banning of cyclists from the A66 as cyclists are seen as incompatible with the majority of traffic and therefore need to be removed.

Motorists who don't cycle much are the majority even in the UK, who will keep in power those who put forward such policies. Not a problem for cyclists in countries with decent infrastructure, but the UK is near the bottom of that list - and that is not going to change for decades even if there were a will to improve it.

My teppenceworth anyway.

dobbo800
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Re: Self driving car kills pedestrian.

Postby dobbo800 » 29 Mar 2018, 3:40pm

danhopgood wrote:I'm a doom-monger by nature. The way I see the future of driverless technology going is this:

Development is overwhelmingly USA based, where there's already a culture of driving everywhere. There's already a lot of big money going into development - and the developers want a quick return on investment. There will be pressure brought to bear on politicians by the developers to bring the technology to market. The risks to "outliers" like cyclists and pedestrians are the hard to do bits in safety management. Therefore there'll be pressure to overcome that problem quickly - and the easiest thing to do is just remove the problem. To say to pedestrians - you may only cross at a designated crossing point and to cyclists no you can't cycle down that road as it's reserved for autonomous vehicles. The ban on cyclists would start on high speed roads and gradually work its way down to local roads. A similar thought process has already started with the probable banning of cyclists from the A66 as cyclists are seen as incompatible with the majority of traffic and therefore need to be removed.

Motorists who don't cycle much are the majority even in the UK, who will keep in power those who put forward such policies. Not a problem for cyclists in countries with decent infrastructure, but the UK is near the bottom of that list - and that is not going to change for decades even if there were a will to improve it.

My teppenceworth anyway.


Sadly, I think you're right.

thirdcrank
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Re: Self driving car kills pedestrian.

Postby thirdcrank » 29 Mar 2018, 3:59pm

Yes and the UK government is so desperate to have a slice of this action that they will do anything to attract it. There will be future jobs as consultants, board members etc., for those who play along and already elected politicians and appointed officials will be manoeuvring into position.

the_twin
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Re: Self driving car kills pedestrian.

Postby the_twin » 30 Mar 2018, 9:31am

Uber are reported to have made a payout to the victim’s family, thus avoiding a court case that might have exposed the failings in their self driving equipment and established principles of liability.

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Re: Self driving car kills pedestrian.

Postby Vorpal » 30 Mar 2018, 10:05am

the_twin wrote:Uber are reported to have made a payout to the victim’s family, thus avoiding a court case that might have exposed the failings in their self driving equipment and established principles of liability.

The settlement only avoids a civil suit from her family. It doesn't necessarily mean anything to any police or technical investigation. That said, it is unlikely that Uber would have agreed to a settlement if they weren't liable.

This article seems to have a sensible analysis http://robohub.org/almost-every-thing-t ... -expected/

And this one states that the car failed to detect the pedestrian in time https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/201 ... s-lawsuit/

The family may very well have demanded some changes in Uber's policies, methods, and/or systems. Conditions of the settlement are unlikely to be made public.
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brynpoeth
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Re: Self driving car kills pedestrian.

Postby brynpoeth » 30 Mar 2018, 6:35pm

the_twin wrote:Uber are reported to have made a payout to the victim’s family, thus avoiding a court case that might have exposed the failings in their self driving equipment and established principles of liability.

Was it a life-changing sum? Can the payment be seen as an admission of civil liability?
Alternative facts welcome .. Cycling? Of course, but it is far better on a Gillott

the_twin
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Re: Self driving car kills pedestrian.

Postby the_twin » 30 Mar 2018, 6:43pm

brynpoeth wrote:
the_twin wrote:Uber are reported to have made a payout to the victim’s family, thus avoiding a court case that might have exposed the failings in their self driving equipment and established principles of liability.

Was it a life-changing sum? Can the payment be seen as an admission of civil liability?

The nature of the payment is of course confidential. However it has been made remarkably soon after the event and will effectively cut off one source of information.

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The utility cyclist
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Re: Self driving car kills pedestrian.

Postby The utility cyclist » 1 Apr 2018, 2:23am

It's easily going to be seven figure sum IMHO, hush money for sure because they know full well that they can go down the route of tying a jury/prosecution in knots, but they know it could cost them and the AI motor industry ££Billions.

The police have already stated that the pedestrian was at fault so I don't see much happening even IF it goes to court.
Statement by Sylvia Moir, Tempe Police Chief absolving the driver and Uber, "It's very clear it would have been difficult to avoid this collision in any kind of mode (autonomous or human-driven) based on how she came from the shadows right into the roadway."

how they've managed to completely assess matters on the basis of a dodgy video from the companies own footage is anyone's guess, looked at the video and that's basically the only evidence needed to come to the conclusion. This would primarily be because of the motorcentric jaywalking laws and the fact the police are morons who aren't interested in looking at all the facts (ignored that the vehicle has RADAR and LIDAR) nor indeed looking at the possibility the footage erroneously shows how dark it is.

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Re: Self driving car kills pedestrian.

Postby Bonefishblues » 1 Apr 2018, 8:35am

It's a simple commercial calculation. That's pretty much it.

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Re: Self driving car kills pedestrian.

Postby Vorpal » 1 Apr 2018, 9:22am

Another Tesla crash in which the driver was obviously not paying attention... https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/ca ... 475346002/
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
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Re: Self driving car kills pedestrian.

Postby Bonefishblues » 1 Apr 2018, 9:26am

Assume that's the one where the driver actively ignored the car telling them to intervene.

Can't argue with stupid.