Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Should the cops stop drivers + cyclists who ignore STOP signs and give them a brief talking to?

Yes
8
24%
Yes, stop means stop
19
56%
Yes, drivers must be taught to read
3
9%
No
0
No votes
No, crawling over the line is ok
0
No votes
No need to stop, despite the law
1
3%
No, they have better things to do
3
9%
Dont matter,signs are unnecessary
0
No votes
No, the signs were put up for fun,1.4!
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 34

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Cunobelin
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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Postby Cunobelin » 6 Mar 2019, 6:40am

The situation is simple....

The road network "works" becausewe have a set of rules. If everyone obeys those rules then we can predict with total certainty what another user will do and the road will be safe

As soon as someone starts bending or breaking those rules then the safety decreases

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Cunobelin
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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Postby Cunobelin » 6 Mar 2019, 6:43am

Isn't option 3 a bit anrti-cyclist?

It assumes that only drivers need to betaught to read. THat implies that whilst drivers have a reason for not stoping, but , cyclists can all read and deliberately flout the law

Cyril Haearn
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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Postby Cyril Haearn » 6 Mar 2019, 6:59pm

Cunobelin wrote:The situation is simple....

The road network "works" becausewe have a set of rules. If everyone obeys those rules then we can predict with total certainty what another user will do and the road will be safe

As soon as someone starts bending or breaking those rules then the safety decreases

Often breaking the law is the norm, obeying the law is unusual, what should one do?!
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Wanlock Dod
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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Postby Wanlock Dod » 6 Mar 2019, 8:41pm

It is my understanding that the levels of law breaking amongst cyclists and motorists is actually rather similar. Somewhere around 15% I believe for both populations. Interestingly there seems to be the suggestion that motorists often break the law for speed and convenience, whereas cyclists are more likely to break the law for reasons of safety. Examples might be motorists speeding (most UK motorists admit to this), and cyclists riding on the pavement.

Study: Cyclists Don’t Break Traffic Laws Any More Than Drivers Do

Edited to add link

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The utility cyclist
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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Postby The utility cyclist » 6 Mar 2019, 9:39pm

Wanlock Dod wrote:It is my understanding that the levels of law breaking amongst cyclists and motorists is actually rather similar. Somewhere around 15% I believe for both populations. Interestingly there seems to be the suggestion that motorists often break the law for speed and convenience, whereas cyclists are more likely to break the law for reasons of safety. Examples might be motorists speeding (most UK motorists admit to this), and cyclists riding on the pavement.

Study: Cyclists Don’t Break Traffic Laws Any More Than Drivers Do

Edited to add link

Given the vast majority of motorists break the speed limit several times every journey, use excessive speed daily and much more besides, the compliance level of motorists to the law/HC is absolute garbage, even in the relative safety of the UK I can pretty much guarantee that 99% of all drivers will be in breach, and most of them several times a journey.
The study you link just mentions when around cyclists, but are the people looking at the video actually qualified and unbias, answer to that would be no*! So already you have a slanted viewpoint on matters. Clearly they ignore compliance with speed because we know full well it's just as bad in the US as here.
*Florida dept of Transportation, that tells me they aren't qualified and have an inherent bias.

And as I've said before, motorist laws are not always appropriate for people on bikes that present thousands of times less danger to others and factually are less danger to pedestrians than pedestrians are to themselves and others!

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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Postby Cyril Haearn » 7 Mar 2019, 4:29am

Wanlock Dod wrote:It is my understanding that the levels of law breaking amongst cyclists and motorists is actually rather similar. Somewhere around 15% I believe for both populations. Interestingly there seems to be the suggestion that motorists often break the law for speed and convenience, whereas cyclists are more likely to break the law for reasons of safety
..

Says it all, drivers break the law to increase speed/danger, cyclists break the law to increase safety, minusplus
Do two wrongs make a right? I fear they do

Edit, just woken up :?
Only 15% of drivers break the law?
Last edited by Cyril Haearn on 31 Aug 2020, 3:19am, edited 1 time in total.
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Wanlock Dod
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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Postby Wanlock Dod » 9 Mar 2019, 8:10am

I think that study might have been based on observations at a junction (perhaps more than one), and didn’t really consider speeding. It’s probably a good way to make motorists appear more law abiding than they are.

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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Postby tatanab » 9 Mar 2019, 8:20am

Cyril Haearn wrote:Says it all, motards break the law to increase speed/danger,
It has been pointed out before that motard is s term for motorcyclists (used by the French). It is not a general term for motorists. So either you have subverted a term for your own purposes without explanation, or you are picking on motorcyclists. As a motorcyclist I object most strongly.

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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Postby Cyril Haearn » 9 Mar 2019, 8:35am

tatanab wrote:
Cyril Haearn wrote:Says it all, motards break the law to increase speed/danger,
It has been pointed out before that motard is s term for motorcyclists (used by the French). It is not a general term for motorists. So either you have subverted a term for your own purposes without explanation, or you are picking on motorcyclists. As a motorcyclist I object most strongly.

I shall use 'morton' in future, thanks for the info
And cyclard of course :?
Last edited by Cyril Haearn on 31 Aug 2020, 3:15am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Postby Cyril Haearn » 31 Aug 2020, 3:14am

Thread resurrection alert
The poll results are interesting

Do others have observations, whether particular STOP signs are generally heeded or not?
I can vaguely remember one stop sign that was often heeded, but only because it was on a busy narrow junction in town with poor visibility
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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Postby irc » 31 Aug 2020, 8:55am

The NYPD has 56000 cops. for a city of 8 million. The MET has 32000 for London pop 9 million. Police Scotland has 17000 cops for a 5 million population. If Scotland had the same ratio as the NYPD it would have 35000 cops.

The broken windows policy won't work when the cops on the frontline are often just fire fighting keeping up with calls coming in.

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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Postby Fruity » 1 Sep 2020, 9:37pm

irc wrote:The NYPD has 56000 cops.



Then there's the other police forces that also have a presence in New York City - including federal, state and other authorities which employ uniformed and armed law enforcement officers. There are literally dozens of other agencies and probably another couple of thousand officers.

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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Postby thirdcrank » 2 Sep 2020, 7:25am

It's not only the size of a police force that affects this, but also the duties to which they are assigned. In England, the proportion of the police assigned to uniform patrol is probably smaller now than it has ever been (but no, I don't have data to hand.)

Other criminal justice agencies are no longer organised to deal with a lot of prosecutions for summary offences eg a quick check suggests that there are now only two magistrates' courts for the whole of North Yorkshire. Obviously, fixed penalties can be administered from an office anywhere, but contested cases need a court and if that's not local, travel for all concerned becomes a big cost. Even in the traditional set-up in an urban area, a police officer going to court for a simple NG plea would be off the streets for at least half a shift, possibly the whole shift.

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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Postby Cyril Haearn » 3 Sep 2020, 7:10pm

Poll is open, please cast your vote
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