Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Should the cops stop drivers + cyclists who ignore STOP signs and give them a brief talking to?

Yes
16
34%
Yes, stop means stop
22
47%
Yes, drivers must be taught to read
4
9%
No
0
No votes
No, crawling over the line is ok
0
No votes
No need to stop, despite the law
2
4%
No, they have better things to do
3
6%
Dont matter,signs are unnecessary
0
No votes
No, the signs were put up for fun,1.4!
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 47

Jdsk
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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Post by Jdsk »

My guess about the small number of responses is that many forum members see this as a promotion of tribal antipathy between different road users and another opportunity to use insulting language about others.

Threads about realistic proposals to improve road safety are some of the most active and prolonged on any subject in the forum. And quite rightly.

Jonathan
DevonDamo
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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Post by DevonDamo »

Cyril Haearn wrote:Poll is still open, please vote

100+ votes on covid vaccines, 34 only here, seems a bit queer, are cyclists more interested in covid? :?


It was two and a half years ago that you started this poll. I think you've done well to get the 34 responses you have on this topic - stop signs are very low down on my list of concerns when it comes to driver behaviour. I'm just curious - what do you hope to achieve with this poll? If you ended up with a list of 100 anonymous forum accounts agreeing that more enforcement on this specific infringement would be a good thing, what do you think you could do with that?
Cyril Haearn
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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Post by Cyril Haearn »

DevonDamo wrote:
Cyril Haearn wrote:Poll is still open, please vote

100+ votes on covid vaccines, 34 only here, seems a bit queer, are cyclists more interested in covid? :?


It was two and a half years ago that you started this poll. I think you've done well to get the 34 responses you have on this topic - stop signs are very low down on my list of concerns when it comes to driver behaviour. I'm just curious - what do you hope to achieve with this poll? If you ended up with a list of 100 anonymous forum accounts agreeing that more enforcement on this specific infringement would be a good thing, what do you think you could do with that?

I want to learn. One learns a lot from people with differing opinions, although this may be unpleasant. I am fascinated to find so many different opinions among enthusiastic cyclists

Poll questions are just as relevant years later, except maybe for political ones, but reading them years later could be very interesting

In this case 89% agreed with me, an excellent result
..
My dream is that the cops employ thousands of civilians to stand by stop signs to teach drivers to read, stop signs could be a high priority for a while until drivers have been taught to read

My dream is that millions would lose their licences

My dream is that 'accidental' deaths and injuries are halved next year, and the year after..

What is your dream?
Last edited by Cyril Haearn on 11 Dec 2020, 9:28am, edited 1 time in total.
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Jdsk
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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Post by Jdsk »

Cyril Haearn wrote:My dream is that the cops employ thousands of civilians to stand by stop signs to teach drivers to read, stop signs could be a high priority for a while until drivers have been taught to read.

This is why I referred to the importance of making realistic proposals. You know perfectly well that the problem of some road users sometimes disobeying written instructions is not a problem of illiteracy.

And so do all of the people who haven't replied in two and a half years.

Jonathan
Jdsk
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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Post by Jdsk »

Cyril Haearn wrote:My dream is that millions would lose their licences

I wonder if just possibly this might not be the best way to change other peoples minds in a way that will make the roads safer for cycling. Because that's what's needed.

Jonathan
Pete Owens
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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Post by Pete Owens »

Cyril Haearn wrote:My dream is that the cops employ thousands of civilians to stand by stop signs to teach drivers to read, stop signs could be a high priority for a while until drivers have been taught to read

My dream is that millions would lose their licences


Given how extraordinarily rare stop signs are in the UK (I don't actually know where I would go to find one) this sounds like a particularly ineffective and strategy to achieve your objective.

Now a slightly different strategy using the same manpower directed at the numeracy, rather than literacy of motorists would be a more productive use of resourses.
Cyril Haearn
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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Post by Cyril Haearn »

A red light means stop, many crawl over the line on red, just the same
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Jdsk
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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Post by Jdsk »

Cyril Haearn wrote:I want to learn. One learns a lot from people with differing opinions...

Pete Owens wrote:Given how extraordinarily rare stop signs are in the UK (I don't actually know where I would go to find one) this sounds like a particularly ineffective and strategy to achieve your objective.

Now a slightly different strategy using the same manpower directed at the numeracy, rather than literacy of motorists would be a more productive use of resourses.

Cyril Haearn wrote:A red light means stop, many crawl over the line on red, just the same

Learning often starts with listening...

Jonathan
mikeymo
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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Post by mikeymo »

Cyril Haearn wrote:The cops in New York adopted a 'broken windows' policy (AKA 'no tolerance'), went after even minor offences and improved safety a great deal
[not sure if I would view having a window broken as a minor offence]


By "safety" do you mean the safety of vulnerable road users, such as cyclists? I'm not sure that was Bratton or Giuliani's principle aim.

I don't think that the term "broken windows policy" has anything to do with a broken window being any sort of offence. But more the idea that neglected neighbourhoods, with evidence of petty vandalism, such as broken windows, tended to encourage petty, then serious crime.

There was a fair amount of point scoring around the fall in New York crime rates. Various people claiming credit. Though it seems that the reasons for the falling crime rate may well have had nothing to do with mayors, commissioners or police chiefs. But were due to environmental and social changes. Namely falling lead levels, and a reduction in unplanned births. That's just from memory, you understand. But I'll have a quick look now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory
https://gothamist.com/news/broken-windows-theory-broken-by-lead-gas-theory

Maybe. I'm not sure. I thought I remembered something about fewer unplanned pregnancies being posited as a cause of falling crime rates. Maybe not.
Last edited by mikeymo on 11 Dec 2020, 7:58pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cyril Haearn
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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Post by Cyril Haearn »

I should not treat having a window broken as a minor matter
..
I think the principle can be applied to driving crime, there is so much of it, best to 'squash the low-lying rotten fruit' first (stop signs in NY), a few rough words to explain that stop means stop*, a fine and points on the licence

* much more efficient than trying to explain more complicated laws
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mikeymo
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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Post by mikeymo »

Cyril Haearn wrote:I should not treat having a window broken as a minor matter


I completely agree. I should treat having a broken window as not a minor matter also.
Jdsk
Posts: 24639
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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Post by Jdsk »

mikeymo wrote:There was a fair amount of point scoring around the fall in New York crime rates. Various people claiming credit. Though it seems that the reasons for the falling crime rate may well have had nothing to do with mayors, commissioners or police chiefs. But were due to environmental and social changes. Namely falling lead levels, and a reduction in unplanned births. That's just from memory, you understand. But I'll have a quick look now.

Yes, it happened in other cities without those policies at the same time.

What caused what is still being analysed.

"Broken windows theory":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory

Jonathan
thirdcrank
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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Post by thirdcrank »

This image is on the BBC News www this morning. Older readers will recognise immediately the traffic sign by its unique silhouette.

HALT AT MAJOR ROAD AHEAD
HALT AT MAJOR ROAD AHEAD


The item it illustrates is about the days when fire brigades were a department of the police, and firemen - as they all were - were policemen as well.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-s ... e-55275155

The perhaps tenuous relevance to this thread is that on a promotion board nearly 50 years ago, one of the chief superintendents asked me what I thought about traffic enforcement being completely separated from the rest of policing referring to fire fighting as a model for it to happen. It seemed like a bad idea at the time, but we'd have traffic enforcement now if it had happened then
Cyril Haearn
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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Post by Cyril Haearn »

We should still have traffic law enforcement, +1!

The modern hexagonal stop signs are distinctive too of course, 'Signs giving Orders': you MUST/MUST NOT
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Jdsk
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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Post by Jdsk »

Cyril Haearn wrote:The modern hexagonal stop signs are distinctive too of course, 'Signs giving Orders': you MUST/MUST NOT

Image

Certainly one of the most distinctive hexagons that I've ever seen.

Jonathan
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