Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Should the cops stop drivers + cyclists who ignore STOP signs and give them a brief talking to?

Yes
16
34%
Yes, stop means stop
22
47%
Yes, drivers must be taught to read
4
9%
No
0
No votes
No, crawling over the line is ok
0
No votes
No need to stop, despite the law
2
4%
No, they have better things to do
3
6%
Dont matter,signs are unnecessary
0
No votes
No, the signs were put up for fun,1.4!
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 47

Mike Sales
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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Post by Mike Sales »

Bonefishblues wrote:
Mike Sales wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:I mean I think that's fair enough.


A non-answer. Why bother to type it?

And yours prior to mine was in what way better? I acknowledged your point and chose not to illustrate what I think is an obvious distinction.


You had claimed to be glad of the chance to make clear the distinction, but you did not do so. I was reminding you of this. Seems reasonable.
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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Post by Bonefishblues »

Mike Sales wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:
Mike Sales wrote:
A non-answer. Why bother to type it?

And yours prior to mine was in what way better? I acknowledged your point and chose not to illustrate what I think is an obvious distinction.


You had claimed to be glad of the chance to make clear the distinction, but you did not do so. I was reminding you of this. Seems reasonable.

I didn't say it was unreasonable. Nor is my leaving it at that.
Vorpal
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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Post by Vorpal »

pwa wrote:
Vorpal wrote:
pwa wrote:Deliberately slowing down a commercial vehicle that is not exceeding the speed limit is a form of bullying by someone with more time on their hands than the commercial driver. Consideration all round is best.

I don't see how this could possibly be bullying. Obstructionist? Yes. Bullying? No. Is it bullying for you to cycle on a road with an HGV following?

Bullying takes many forms, not just physical or threat of physical. To deliberately wind someone up for no good reason when they have done nothing to you and are complying with the law and driving safely is a form of bullying. You have a power over them and you know that there is nothing they can reasonably do to get back at you. If you know or expect you are inflicting stress on them, yes, that is inflicting harm. Deliberately.

As for the last bit, deliberately slowing down an HGV by obstructing them for no good reason whilst cycling (the "no good reason" bit is important) is a bit mean but also perhaps brave. So a bit different. I for one feel more exposed on a bike than in a car.

So, not having a metal box around you makes the difference between bullying and brave? Even though, either way the lorry many tonnes hearvier?

I don't follow that logic. Where has brypoeth said he delinerately winds anyone up? The police recommend when someone is following too closely, to slow down until the following distance is suitable for the speed.

As for 'no good reason', well that's personal judgement.
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pwa
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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Post by pwa »

Vorpal wrote:
pwa wrote:
Vorpal wrote:I don't see how this could possibly be bullying. Obstructionist? Yes. Bullying? No. Is it bullying for you to cycle on a road with an HGV following?

Bullying takes many forms, not just physical or threat of physical. To deliberately wind someone up for no good reason when they have done nothing to you and are complying with the law and driving safely is a form of bullying. You have a power over them and you know that there is nothing they can reasonably do to get back at you. If you know or expect you are inflicting stress on them, yes, that is inflicting harm. Deliberately.

As for the last bit, deliberately slowing down an HGV by obstructing them for no good reason whilst cycling (the "no good reason" bit is important) is a bit mean but also perhaps brave. So a bit different. I for one feel more exposed on a bike than in a car.

So, not having a metal box around you makes the difference between bullying and brave? Even though, either way the lorry many tonnes hearvier?

I don't follow that logic. Where has brypoeth said he delinerately winds anyone up? The police recommend when someone is following too closely, to slow down until the following distance is suitable for the speed.

As for 'no good reason', well that's personal judgement.


In your (I think) seldom seen scenario of a cyclist deliberately slowing down a following HGV for no good reason, the cyclist would be guilty of bullying except for the fact that the cyclist would be exposing himself / herself to risk, and bullies don't do that. He / she would just be someone who takes pleasure in the discomfort of others. You can think of a name for that.

In a car you feel safer, so slowing the same HGV, again for no good reason, is bullying because the car driver is choosing to inflict stress on another human being, and feels that the other party cannot hit back.

Both scenarios require the HGV driver to be doing nothing wrong. If they are trying to go faster than the speed limit, or faster than road conditions allow, none of this applies. And I have already said that I too slow down if an HGV gets too close to the back of my vehicle.

This was all in response to Cyril Haearn suggesting that it is good to drive at considerably less than the speed limit even where road conditions don't require that for safety. Possibly in another thread on speed limit enforcement. These discussions skip from thread to thread. I suggested that deliberately slowing a delivery driver who is inside the speed limit and at a safe speed is unkind, because of the stress they are under to deliver a certain number of items in a set time. It developed from there.

All people deserve a bit of kindness, even delivery drivers.
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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Post by Vorpal »

My scenario was not a cyclist deliberately going slowly, but merely cycling. I don't see how that is different from a car, for whatever reason, going somewhat below the speed limit. It is entirely justifiable to drive slowly when anyone behind is following too closely. I sometimes do so for my own safety.

As for whether road conditions justify it, well that, too is a matter of personal judgement, and I think I lorry follwoing too closely is 'road condition' that justifies driving slowly.

You seem to have read into Cyril Haearn's statement that he does it for no good reason, and unless I've missed something, you are assigning motive to him that he has not stated, anywhere. Certainly calling him a bully and saying he's only doing to wind people up is cannot logically be concluded from anything he has said, and I think it is a step too far.
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pwa
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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Post by pwa »

Vorpal wrote:My scenario was not a cyclist deliberately going slowly, but merely cycling. I don't see how that is different from a car, for whatever reason, going somewhat below the speed limit. It is entirely justifiable to drive slowly when anyone behind is following too closely. I sometimes do so for my own safety.

As for whether road conditions justify it, well that, too is a matter of personal judgement, and I think I lorry follwoing too closely is 'road condition' that justifies driving slowly.

You seem to have read into Cyril Haearn's statement that he does it for no good reason, and unless I've missed something, you are assigning motive to him that he has not stated, anywhere. Certainly calling him a bully and saying he's only doing to wind people up is cannot logically be concluded from anything he has said, and I think it is a step too far.


Let's get the agreed stuff out of the way. A lorry following too close behind is not acceptable and, as I have said, I'd slow down if I was in a car and that happened. I'd also not speed up just because a lorry driver wanted to go faster than I thought appropriate for the conditions and with regard to the speed limit. So when I talk of slowing a delivery driver down "without good reason" that is exactly what I mean. Bryn has talked on another thread of taking pleasure in slowing other drivers down to significantly below the speed limit as a default setting regardless of conditions, and if you do that with a delivery driver behind you (you are in a car, remember) you should give some thought to the job they have to do. If the limit is 40mph and there is no safety related reason not to get close to that, why would anyone choose not to help the delivery driver by getting fairly close the max speed allowed? Clearly if you are cycling you just do the speed you do.

I expect Bryn means well, but I feel that we can be too tribal in the way we see life on the roads. It's not just us cyclists, every user group tends to fall into the trap of Them And Us. We only have people. People on foot, people on bikes, people behind steering wheels. I try to keep that in mind. It can be hard to do that, given the provocation, but I do. So if I am cruising along the inside lane of the motorway in my car at 50mph and a vehicle probably limited to 56mph comes up behind and can't easily pass for some reason, I speed up a bit to save the driver a bit of stress. No law broken, nobody put at risk. A small safe and legal increase in speed to help another human get their day's work done a bit more easily. That is what I am trying to get across. Clumsily perhaps. And apologies to Bryn for poorly chosen language that could easily offend.
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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Post by Cyril Haearn »

I really hate people who have priority but flash their lights to invite someone who does not have priority to move out, saw this today, those who take advantage of this 'consideration' are just as bad. I refuse to, the normal drivers think I am a bit nutty
Police time could be well spent giving both a %&€@#* good talking to, putting the Fear of God into them (it happened by a church), once they have taught the motons to read stop signs

One hopes they could issue €€ tickets here too
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Cunobelin
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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Post by Cunobelin »

Cyril Haearn wrote:I really hate people who have priority but flash their lights to invite someone who does not have priority to move out, saw this today, those who take advantage of this 'consideration' are just as bad. I refuse to, the normal drivers think I am a bit nutty
Police time could be well spent giving both a %&€@#* good talking to, putting the Fear of God into them (it happened by a church), once they have taught the motons to read stop signs

One hopes they could issue €€ tickets here too



There are 6 junctions that are on my commute.

In each case the junction becomes unusable if the above did not happen.

In fact thinking of it I cannot drive out of my local estate............
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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Post by Cyril Haearn »

Cunobelin wrote:
Cyril Haearn wrote:I really hate people who have priority but flash their lights to invite someone who does not have priority to move out, saw this today, those who take advantage of this 'consideration' are just as bad. I refuse to, the normal drivers think I am a bit nutty
Police time could be well spent giving both a %&€@#* good talking to, putting the Fear of God into them (it happened by a church), once they have taught the motons to read stop signs

One hopes they could issue €€ tickets here too



There are 6 junctions that are on my commute.

In each case the junction becomes unusable if the above did not happen.

In fact thinking of it I cannot drive out of my local estate............

Of course one leaves a gap if there is a queue although in theory those waiting to join might have to wait a long time (that is surely the situation you mean?)
In the case I observed and described the two vehicles involved were the only ones to be seen
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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Post by Cyril Haearn »

pwa wrote:As I have previously confessed, I have attended a class for naughty folk who stray over the speed limit.
..
..

I could not find your account of the class, could you post it again, or a link? Diolch
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Cunobelin
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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Post by Cunobelin »

Cyril Haearn wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:
Cyril Haearn wrote:I really hate people who have priority but flash their lights to invite someone who does not have priority to move out, saw this today, those who take advantage of this 'consideration' are just as bad. I refuse to, the normal drivers think I am a bit nutty
Police time could be well spent giving both a %&€@#* good talking to, putting the Fear of God into them (it happened by a church), once they have taught the motons to read stop signs

One hopes they could issue €€ tickets here too



There are 6 junctions that are on my commute.

In each case the junction becomes unusable if the above did not happen.

In fact thinking of it I cannot drive out of my local estate............

Of course one leaves a gap if there is a queue although in theory those waiting to join might have to wait a long time (that is surely the situation you mean?)
In the case I observed and described the two vehicles involved were the only ones to be seen


Which was not part of the post.

The fact is that if at these types of junctions traffic "zips" then it is the most efficient way.

Giving the other driver an indication that you are ceding right of way is courteous and the safer option
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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Post by Cyril Haearn »

Cunobelin wrote:
Cyril Haearn wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:

There are 6 junctions that are on my commute.

In each case the junction becomes unusable if the above did not happen.

In fact thinking of it I cannot drive out of my local estate............

Of course one leaves a gap if there is a queue although in theory those waiting to join might have to wait a long time (that is surely the situation you mean?)
In the case I observed and described the two vehicles involved were the only ones to be seen


Which was not part of the post.

The fact is that if at these types of junctions traffic "zips" then it is the most efficient way.

Giving the other driver an indication that you are ceding right of way is courteous and the safer option

We even have a word for it in German, Reissverschlussverfahren, alternate merging (on the Autobahn)
It is really best not to try to communicate, by waving for example
I communicate by the position and speed (or lack of it :wink:) of my vehicle
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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Post by pwa »

Cyril Haearn wrote:
pwa wrote:As I have previously confessed, I have attended a class for naughty folk who stray over the speed limit.
..
..

I could not find your account of the class, could you post it again, or a link? Diolch


I can tell you about it now. I was caught going a few of mph over the limit, unintentionally and no complaints from me about being collared for it. Lack of concentration. I did remember accelerating to just over the limit, glancing down and seeing my mistake, and quickly correcting to get legal. I didn't realise it but I'd been caught in my 10 seconds or so over the limit.

The course was okay. Interesting in parts. My impression was that most of the people attending were caught doing just over the limit and were responsive to the safety advice on the course. I know you would call them criminals, but on the day I saw ordinary people who were less than perfect but not villains either. Only one person seemed to me to be determined to carry on speeding, unconvinced of the need to slow down. He was the exception.

Discussion was encouraged. It wasn't just the bloke presenting. But the day was structured with sections on various aspects of road safety and speed awareness. Mostly reasonable stuff with plenty of explanation of the theory behind things. I'd recommend the course to anyone, but the entry requirements involve being naughty first.

Since then my efforts to sharpen up on the road have included having a satnav switched on all the time, even when not giving directions, because it pings when I reach or exceed a limit. It is like having a critic in the car, telling me when I need to concentrate more on my speed. It works for me.
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Cunobelin
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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Post by Cunobelin »

Cyril Haearn wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:
Cyril Haearn wrote:Of course one leaves a gap if there is a queue although in theory those waiting to join might have to wait a long time (that is surely the situation you mean?)
In the case I observed and described the two vehicles involved were the only ones to be seen


Which was not part of the post.

The fact is that if at these types of junctions traffic "zips" then it is the most efficient way.

Giving the other driver an indication that you are ceding right of way is courteous and the safer option

We even have a word for it in German, Reissverschlussverfahren, alternate merging (on the Autobahn)
It is really best not to try to communicate, by waving for example
I communicate by the position and speed (or lack of it :wink:) of my vehicle


THhs is a small town in Hampshire, not the Autobahn. Signals are courteous and make your intentions clear. It is far safer
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Cunobelin
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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Post by Cunobelin »

pwa wrote:
Since then my efforts to sharpen up on the road have included having a satnav switched on all the time, even when not giving directions, because it pings when I reach or exceed a limit. It is like having a critic in the car, telling me when I need to concentrate more on my speed. It works for me.


Whilst arguably under ideal conditions SatNav can be more accurate, signal variation can mean a significant lag in changes and also accuracy.

There is also an issue with gradients. the horizontal distance travelled is completely inaccurate as the you travel further in reality
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