Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Should the cops stop drivers + cyclists who ignore STOP signs and give them a brief talking to?

Yes
8
24%
Yes, stop means stop
19
56%
Yes, drivers must be taught to read
3
9%
No
0
No votes
No, crawling over the line is ok
0
No votes
No need to stop, despite the law
1
3%
No, they have better things to do
3
9%
Dont matter,signs are unnecessary
0
No votes
No, the signs were put up for fun,1.4!
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 34

pwa
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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Postby pwa » 9 Apr 2018, 9:34pm

Cunobelin wrote:
pwa wrote:
Since then my efforts to sharpen up on the road have included having a satnav switched on all the time, even when not giving directions, because it pings when I reach or exceed a limit. It is like having a critic in the car, telling me when I need to concentrate more on my speed. It works for me.


Whilst arguably under ideal conditions SatNav can be more accurate, signal variation can mean a significant lag in changes and also accuracy.


That's right, and I build that in to my thinking. Satnav is much more accurate, but it tells you your speed of a few seconds ago. So it is great when you are holding a fairly constant speed but needs a bit of anticipation when you are accelerating.

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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Postby Cyril Haearn » 10 Apr 2018, 4:38am

Cunobelin wrote:
Cyril Haearn wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:
Which was not part of the post.

The fact is that if at these types of junctions traffic "zips" then it is the most efficient way.

Giving the other driver an indication that you are ceding right of way is courteous and the safer option

We even have a word for it in German, Reissverschlussverfahren, alternate merging (on the Autobahn)
It is really best not to try to communicate, by waving for example
I communicate by the position and speed (or lack of it :wink:) of my vehicle


THhs is a small town in Hampshire, not the Autobahn. Signals are courteous and make your intentions clear. It is far safer

Signals are often misinterpreted, flashing ones lights for example
My vehicle was written off in an 'accident' caused by a 'cooperative' signal*
Best not to communicate, just wait a moment. One can never know how the signal might be interpreted or if a cyclist is sneaking up on the inside
* in a small town in middle England
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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Postby Vorpal » 10 Apr 2018, 9:51am

I agree that signals can easily be misinterpretted and there are limited circumstances under which one driver can/should cede priority to another who would not normally have priority in that circumstance. Even then, it is extremely important that everyone makes sure it is also safe to proceed.


In the case of a junction that could be blocked with traffic, there is no need to give any signals. Merely stop short of the junction, such that it is obviouly clear in your path, and let others proceed when they judge it safe to do so.

Norwegian drivers often cede priority to cyclists, and seem irritated if I don't jump at the chance. But sometimes they do so in circumstances where it doesn't necessarily help me, and I see no reason to increase my risk, just so they can feel good about being nice to a cyclist. If it helps me, I sometimes take advantage of it, but not always. I take each situation as it comes. I do give them a little wave of thanks, even if I don't take advantage of ceded priority.
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thirdcrank
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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Postby thirdcrank » 10 Apr 2018, 1:15pm

A propos of not very much, twice in the last couple of days at different locations I have been standing on a pedestrian refuge waiting for the opportunity to finish crossing when a driver has stopped to let me do so. The first time it was a double-decker bus. Probably a sign that I look so decrepit they don't want me collapsing in the middle of the road and reducing a large part of Leeds to gridlock, but my waves of thanks were genuine. :D

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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Postby Cyril Haearn » 10 Apr 2018, 5:17pm

thirdcrank wrote:A propos of not very much, twice in the last couple of days at different locations I have been standing on a pedestrian refuge waiting for the opportunity to finish crossing when a driver has stopped to let me do so. The first time it was a double-decker bus. Probably a sign that I look so decrepit they don't want me collapsing in the middle of the road and reducing a large part of Leeds to gridlock, but my waves of thanks were genuine. :D

I would wait until a gap appeared. Never trust a driver who waves you across!
Has she really stopped and applied the handbrake? Is a cyclist sneaking up on the inside?
In a jam the way must be left clear, but how many drivers stop and apply the handbrake and engage neutral?
Very few
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Airsporter1st
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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Postby Airsporter1st » 10 Apr 2018, 5:29pm

pwa wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:
pwa wrote:
Since then my efforts to sharpen up on the road have included having a satnav switched on all the time, even when not giving directions, because it pings when I reach or exceed a limit. It is like having a critic in the car, telling me when I need to concentrate more on my speed. It works for me.


Whilst arguably under ideal conditions SatNav can be more accurate, signal variation can mean a significant lag in changes and also accuracy.


That's right, and I build that in to my thinking. Satnav is much more accurate, but it tells you your speed of a few seconds ago. So it is great when you are holding a fairly constant speed but needs a bit of anticipation when you are accelerating.


If you don't mind me saying so, I think you and Cunobelin are slightly missing the point regarding satnav versus speedo speed. The fact that satnav speed is accurate can be exploited by using it to 'calibrate' your speedo at various constant speeds at any convenient time. Thus you can determine that at e.g. an indicated 30, you are really doing 28, at an indicated 40, you are really doing 38, etc. etc. Once you know the difference(s), they can be applied for the life of your vehicle, assuming nothing is changed. Thus lag and signal variation don't come into it.

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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Postby pwa » 10 Apr 2018, 5:34pm

Airsporter1st wrote:
pwa wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:
Whilst arguably under ideal conditions SatNav can be more accurate, signal variation can mean a significant lag in changes and also accuracy.


That's right, and I build that in to my thinking. Satnav is much more accurate, but it tells you your speed of a few seconds ago. So it is great when you are holding a fairly constant speed but needs a bit of anticipation when you are accelerating.


If you don't mind me saying so, I think you and Cunobelin are slightly missing the point regarding satnav versus speedo speed. The fact that satnav speed is accurate can be exploited by using it to 'calibrate' your speedo at various constant speeds at any convenient time. Thus you can determine that at e.g. an indicated 30, you are really doing 28, at an indicated 40, you are really doing 38, etc. etc. Once you know the difference(s), they can be applied for the life of your vehicle, assuming nothing is changed. Thus lag and signal variation don't come into it.


The added bonus of the satnav for me is mainly that I have it set to beep at me when I get to (or exceed) the limit, which I find useful. It's an extra thing if my concentration wanders.

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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Postby Cunobelin » 10 Apr 2018, 6:27pm

Airsporter1st wrote:
pwa wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:
Whilst arguably under ideal conditions SatNav can be more accurate, signal variation can mean a significant lag in changes and also accuracy.


That's right, and I build that in to my thinking. Satnav is much more accurate, but it tells you your speed of a few seconds ago. So it is great when you are holding a fairly constant speed but needs a bit of anticipation when you are accelerating.


If you don't mind me saying so, I think you and Cunobelin are slightly missing the point regarding satnav versus speedo speed. The fact that satnav speed is accurate can be exploited by using it to 'calibrate' your speedo at various constant speeds at any convenient time. Thus you can determine that at e.g. an indicated 30, you are really doing 28, at an indicated 40, you are really doing 38, etc. etc. Once you know the difference(s), they can be applied for the life of your vehicle, assuming nothing is changed. Thus lag and signal variation don't come into it.



Simply advice given to me and experience. Colleague of mine was caught speeding and decided to use the SatNav "track" to prove his innocence (34 in a 30 zone)



He was under the limit according to the SatNav, but this was countered by the calibrated camera that caught him

He was told afterwards that it was a common problem at this point. Because of the Valley, Signal was poor and a lot of people got caught out

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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Postby Cyril Haearn » 11 Apr 2018, 5:18am

pwa wrote:
Cyril Haearn wrote:
pwa wrote:Deliberately slowing down a commercial vehicle that is not exceeding the speed limit is a form of bullying by someone with more time on their hands than the commercial driver. Consideration all round is best.

I am all in favour of freedom of opinion, it is often good to read that people disagree with me but:
'Bullying' is not the right word, I do not have power to threaten the driver behind me, she does have power
There is no minimum speed limit, often the maximum limit is too high
We know enough about the antics of 'professional' drivers (8 killed on M1 &c &c)
Trucks typically follow too close, at whatever speed. It might ocasionally be possible to accelerate away to create a gap (in most cases this would be madness) but they close up again. Then the least unsafe thing is to slow down, likely this 'wakes up' the driver who is swearing at me for going 'too slowly' instead of concentraing on the phonecall

Really, hgvs should be limited to 40 mph, on motorways too


If you want HGVs limited to 40 mph make the argument to a wider audience, campaign and get the law changed so that haulage companies will have to adjust the speed limiters on their vehicles and the drivers given longer to do their runs. And we all pay a bit more for everything shifted by HGV because there will have to be more of them, going slower, to shift the same amount of stuff. The drivers will be okay with it. The law will be demanding they have longer to do a run. But until that happens, deliberately slowing down a delivery driver who is not speeding, for no particular reason, is indeed bullying. You are deliberately causing them stress because you can and because you think you will get away with it with no harm to yourself. That is bullying.

Never been called a bully before, diolch yn fawr iawn :)
Maybe I am like the great Mrs Thatcher, she was criticised a lot but plenty of people loved her too

Anyone else think I am a bully?
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pwa
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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Postby pwa » 11 Apr 2018, 9:09am

Cyril Haearn wrote:
pwa wrote:
Cyril Haearn wrote:I am all in favour of freedom of opinion, it is often good to read that people disagree with me but:
'Bullying' is not the right word, I do not have power to threaten the driver behind me, she does have power
There is no minimum speed limit, often the maximum limit is too high
We know enough about the antics of 'professional' drivers (8 killed on M1 &c &c)
Trucks typically follow too close, at whatever speed. It might ocasionally be possible to accelerate away to create a gap (in most cases this would be madness) but they close up again. Then the least unsafe thing is to slow down, likely this 'wakes up' the driver who is swearing at me for going 'too slowly' instead of concentraing on the phonecall

Really, hgvs should be limited to 40 mph, on motorways too


If you want HGVs limited to 40 mph make the argument to a wider audience, campaign and get the law changed so that haulage companies will have to adjust the speed limiters on their vehicles and the drivers given longer to do their runs. And we all pay a bit more for everything shifted by HGV because there will have to be more of them, going slower, to shift the same amount of stuff. The drivers will be okay with it. The law will be demanding they have longer to do a run. But until that happens, deliberately slowing down a delivery driver who is not speeding, for no particular reason, is indeed bullying. You are deliberately causing them stress because you can and because you think you will get away with it with no harm to yourself. That is bullying.

Never been called a bully before, diolch yn fawr iawn :)
Maybe I am like the great Mrs Thatcher, she was criticised a lot but plenty of people loved her too

Anyone else think I am a bully?


Bully was a strong word and I regret it. But what I was trying to get over was that if you have a good reason for slowing down a delivery driver to below the speed limit, fine. A good reason would include things like children on the pavement, a row of parked cars that could be hiding anything, or a cyclist you are going to have to pass. But if you are slowing the delivery driver down to significantly below the speed limit just because you like doing that, without any concrete safety reason, that is introducing stress into that person's life. For what? I invite you to widen the range of people you care for. Even a lorry driver is someone's son or daughter.

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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Postby Vorpal » 11 Apr 2018, 9:22am

There is a reason that speedometers register the speed conservatively. It is a legal requirement that helps contribute to people driving at an appropriate speed. Satnavs may ergister a speed that is closer to actual speed in some conditions, but that doesnæt mean they are a better way to judge your speed. Yes, the little 'ding' when you exceed the speed limit is nice. BUT if you use your speedo, and it is legally calibrated, there is no reason ever to hear the 'ping'. So what if your speedo registers a few mph below the actual? So do most other people's.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Postby pwa » 11 Apr 2018, 10:11am

Vorpal wrote:There is a reason that speedometers register the speed conservatively. It is a legal requirement that helps contribute to people driving at an appropriate speed. Satnavs may ergister a speed that is closer to actual speed in some conditions, but that doesnæt mean they are a better way to judge your speed. Yes, the little 'ding' when you exceed the speed limit is nice. BUT if you use your speedo, and it is legally calibrated, there is no reason ever to hear the 'ping'. So what if your speedo registers a few mph below the actual? So do most other people's.


Are you sure that speedos overstate speed for that reason? I thought it was just that they are inaccurate and affected by things like tyre wear, and for safety reasons cannot be allowed to understate the speed. If you use your speedo to judge your speed and take what it tells you literally you will be doing maybe 27mph when you think you are doing 30mph. If you then tell yourself that you want to be on the safe side and see a reading on your speedo 3mph below the 30 limit, you will take a further 3mph from the actual 27 you were doing, meaning 24mph. 20% below the limit.

Delivery drivers start their working day with a very tight schedule. Most are employed and don't get to draw up their own schedule. We the customers demand stuff cheap and moan if it is late. So the driver is under pressure at work, as most of us are. They have a duty to drive within the law and to maintain safely. But where safety can be maintained they have a pressure to do close to the speed limit so that they don't fall behind schedule. If we care about other people regardless of their vehicle we should factor that into our considerations. I'm not suggesting anyone exceed the limit or drive at an inappropriate speed.

A funny story, funny now but less so at the time. I was once driving from South Wales to the north of England and for some reason took the mid Wales route and ended up on the road between Llandrindod and Newtown. The car was a low powered Mk1 Seat Ibiza with a 1 litre Fiat engine, so very slow to accelerate. Overtaking was rarely possible.

I finished up behind a car driven by an old lady. On the straights it did a normal speed, upto about 40, so in my low powered car I couldn't pass. But on the corners, of which there are a great many, she slowed to 15mph or thereabouts. This was on a 60mph limit A road. This went on for maybe 15 miles. Crawl around a corner then zoom. Crawl then zoom. My mind went through its own journey, from incomprehension, through frustration, then resignation, then humour. I was on a private journey so I had time to play with, but that would have been very stressful for a delivery driver on a tight schedule.

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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Postby Vorpal » 11 Apr 2018, 12:37pm

Maybe the problem is delivery driver schedules?
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
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pwa
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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Postby pwa » 11 Apr 2018, 1:56pm

Vorpal wrote:Maybe the problem is delivery driver schedules?


Now if something could be done to ensure they left more slack, that would be progress.

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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Postby thirdcrank » 11 Apr 2018, 3:33pm

Bearing in mind how few STOP signs there are these days, I doubt if there are many places where a PC with time on their hands could find one to stand by. By coincidence, this morning I was driving through Bradford on yet another welfare-related trip (as you grow older, so do most of your associates) when I was nearly wiped out by a driver who ignored a STOP sign at some speed. Very slow moving traffic in both directions when a driver was able to edge out from my right to join the queue I was in and he was followed by a van that shot straight across the junction at some speed. The STOP sign is there because emerging drivers have no view to their left.