Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Should the cops stop drivers + cyclists who ignore STOP signs and give them a brief talking to?

Yes
8
24%
Yes, stop means stop
19
56%
Yes, drivers must be taught to read
3
9%
No
0
No votes
No, crawling over the line is ok
0
No votes
No need to stop, despite the law
1
3%
No, they have better things to do
3
9%
Dont matter,signs are unnecessary
0
No votes
No, the signs were put up for fun,1.4!
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 34

Cyril Haearn
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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Postby Cyril Haearn » 22 Apr 2018, 7:11am

Cyril Haearn wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:
Cyril Haearn wrote:What is the 'safe speed', maximum limit minus x%?



10% + 2

That is the calculation sued by ACPO to decide whether the offence is to be dealt with by a Magistrate as opposed to a simpler fine / education

'education' the song by Hall + Oates, 'adult education' springs to mind :o

No, here I mean, is there a formula for a 'safe speed' (term used by pwa)? 50 kmh through the industrial estate is obviously too fast
Maximum limit minus xyz%?

Trouble is, some people think and some do not
For me the 'safe' speed is rather lower than the maximum. WVW does not think, she is under pressure to deliver ASAP, she does not give a *** about maximum speed limits, STOP signs &c, she does not even think when she comes up behind me, she follows too closely thus *bullying* me into going slower, I am glad to slow down. For all I know she understands the laws of physics and is trying to slow me down by following close

There are plenty of pressures on delivery drivers to go faster, many habitually exceed the maximum, I am glad if I can *bully* them into slowing down, pressure in the other direction

The best situation maybe is where the road is narrow and I can not let her by, I can go slowly, save fuel, and lose a few seconds :wink:
In theory one could let WVW by but maybe it is better to try to *bully* her into observing the law
Only trying to mind, she ignores the law on following distances at low speeds too
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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Postby Cyril Haearn » 22 Apr 2018, 7:27am

I do love the 'save draft' function on these fora, it lets me formulate my thoughts, then maybe calm down a bit
I often tone them down or abbreviate them before posting later
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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Postby Vorpal » 22 Apr 2018, 10:31am

To me, safe speed is a matter of conditions. Speed limits are generally quite high compared to what is safe.

If there area vulnerable users around, speeds should be low...
speed vs fatality1.jpg
speed vs fatality1.jpg (25.59 KiB) Viewed 2077 times
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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Postby pwa » 23 Apr 2018, 3:29pm

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5758399 ... 6?hl=en-GB

A couple of days ago I drove down this section of road, which is limited to 30mph. It was dry, daylight, and the safe speed on that straight section at that time was very much the speed limit. 30mph was safe. And legal. We have a thing situated between our ears to work out what is safe, and what is safe changes as conditions change. Put simply, a model driver will drive at the speed limit minus whatever it takes to make things safe. That's it.

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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Postby Cyril Haearn » 5 May 2018, 10:19am

The result is overwhelming, 88% gave the right answer!

How can we harness this momentum in the Fight against Terror?
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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Postby Psamathe » 5 May 2018, 10:30am

Cyril Haearn wrote:The result is overwhelming, 88% gave the right answer!

How can we harness this momentum in the Fight against Terror?

Without commenting on the question from this poll, your post reminded me of a quote I saved
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/25/deadly-terrorism-britain-roads-security-risk wrote:If, say, jihadis were roaming our streets with automatic weapons, killing off 35 people a week, and critically injuring another 420, that terror would see a Brussels-style total lockdown of everything, everywhere. That’s the number killed and injured on the roads, but few shake with fear as they get into their car.


Ian

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Cunobelin
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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Postby Cunobelin » 5 May 2018, 10:48am

Cyril Haearn wrote:
Cyril Haearn wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:

10% + 2

That is the calculation sued by ACPO to decide whether the offence is to be dealt with by a Magistrate as opposed to a simpler fine / education

'education' the song by Hall + Oates, 'adult education' springs to mind :o

No, here I mean, is there a formula for a 'safe speed' (term used by pwa)? 50 kmh through the industrial estate is obviously too fast
Maximum limit minus xyz%?

Trouble is, some people think and some do not
For me the 'safe' speed is rather lower than the maximum. WVW does not think, she is under pressure to deliver ASAP, she does not give a *** about maximum speed limits, STOP signs &c, she does not even think when she comes up behind me, she follows too closely thus *bullying* me into going slower, I am glad to slow down. For all I know she understands the laws of physics and is trying to slow me down by following close

There are plenty of pressures on delivery drivers to go faster, many habitually exceed the maximum, I am glad if I can *bully* them into slowing down, pressure in the other direction

The best situation maybe is where the road is narrow and I can not let her by, I can go slowly, save fuel, and lose a few seconds :wink:
In theory one could let WVW by but maybe it is better to try to *bully* her into observing the law
Only trying to mind, she ignores the law on following distances at low speeds too


There used to be a prolific "Road Safety Engineer" called Paul Smith who ran a site called SafeSpeed

It was full of tips for safe driving

Classic ways of dealing with speeding was if you were caught....
Trawl through local obituaries and claiming a random deceased person was driving your car as the Police would nit intrude other grief by investigating, altering your number plates and if caught claim that the "local kids had done it for a joke", getting elderly relatives to maintain their license simply for the purpose of taking your points



Having established the credibility of the site.....and the belief that "routine speeding is, for the majority of responsible motorists, nothing more than a side effect of a vital safety-oriented driver behaviour"

Their suggestion was that the only person who was qualified to assess the "Safe Speed" was by drivers themselves. You measured speed along a road and then took the 85th centile as the limit
Last edited by Cunobelin on 5 May 2018, 11:08am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Postby thirdcrank » 5 May 2018, 11:03am

Cunobelin wrote: ... getting elderly relatives to maintain the ir license simply for the purpose of taking your pints ...


Just to show I'm paying attention, I'll mention that this evokes memories of the "Des" campaign to nominate a designated driver, leaving others to quaff the pints and indeed any other booze. Sponsored by Coca Cola IIRC
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/camp ... -and-think

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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Postby Cunobelin » 5 May 2018, 11:08am

thirdcrank wrote:
Cunobelin wrote: ... getting elderly relatives to maintain the ir license simply for the purpose of taking your pints ...


Just to show I'm paying attention, I'll mention that this evokes memories of the "Des" campaign to nominate a designated driver, leaving others to quaff the pints and indeed any other booze. Sponsored by Coca Cola IIRC
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/camp ... -and-think


I hate auto spelling

- Corrected

thirdcrank
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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Postby thirdcrank » 5 May 2018, 11:44am

The latest whingeing I've seen about speed limit enforcement is this:

Review ordered of smart motorway speed limits after record fines are handed out

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/0 ... es-handed/

As a collection of misinterpreted data and non sequitur it's a gem

More fines are being imposed by so-called smart motorways than was the case a decade ago, but the mileage of smart motorway has increased considerably during the same time.

But many motorists have complained about being hit with fines for exceeding lower speed limits, even when the roads are relatively clear of traffic.


The whole smart motorway concept is to keep traffic moving more freely by reducing speed during congestion, so it seems that working to plan is being used to condemn the system. FWIW, my own experience of the system is that the displayed limit tends to be faster, often considerably faster than the current actual traffic speed, so it's at best futile and at worst may encourage some drivers to try to go faster. One aspect where I agree with King Edmund is this:

The fact is that cameras are really being used to replace police. The problem is that cameras don't catch drink drivers; they don't catch the middle-lane hoggers, they don't catch the dangerous tailgaters.


Unfortunately, they've generally "found something better to do with their time," partly as a government response to bleating about police persecuting otherwise law-abiding motorists.

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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Postby Cunobelin » 5 May 2018, 1:35pm

thirdcrank wrote:The latest whingeing I've seen about speed limit enforcement is this:

Review ordered of smart motorway speed limits after record fines are handed out

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/0 ... es-handed/

As a collection of misinterpreted data and non sequitur it's a gem

More fines are being imposed by so-called smart motorways than was the case a decade ago, but the mileage of smart motorway has increased considerably during the same time.

But many motorists have complained about being hit with fines for exceeding lower speed limits, even when the roads are relatively clear of traffic.


The whole smart motorway concept is to keep traffic moving more freely by reducing speed during congestion, so it seems that working to plan is being used to condemn the system. FWIW, my own experience of the system is that the displayed limit tends to be faster, often considerably faster than the current actual traffic speed, so it's at best futile and at worst may encourage some drivers to try to go faster. One aspect where I agree with King Edmund is this:

The fact is that cameras are really being used to replace police. The problem is that cameras don't catch drink drivers; they don't catch the middle-lane hoggers, they don't catch the dangerous tailgaters.


Unfortunately, they've generally "found something better to do with their time," partly as a government response to bleating about police persecuting otherwise law-abiding motorists.


The one big thing that the pro-speeding lobby hate is any form of censure for their bad driving including the Police

When Police do start clamping down on these very things then it is still a "Jihad" against motorists. These cameras enable censure of more drivers breaking the law than a Police Officer on the road could. Classically in Manchester there was the desperate bleating then because the Olice were clamping down on bad driving that the Police were a road hazard. Apparently it meant that drivers were "forced" to concentrate on looking for Police Vehicles rather than paying attention to the road.



There is also this weird link between poor motoring and Police presence preventing it.

A police vehicle can only look after a few feet of motorway around it. They are equally unable to identify the drink drivers, middle-lane hoggers, dangerous tailgaters unless they are in that very small bubble

However that is why the Association of Bad Drivers etc love the concept. Remove the cameras and replacing with Police lessens your chances of getting caught by a considerable margin - Result

The other thing to remember is that there are established links between speeding and other risk taking behaviour such as tail gating, poor overtaking, poor discipline at junctions

So in their way, these cameras are detecting the tail gaters and their ilk and along with the speeding offences are far more efficient in censuring poor driving.

All we need to do really is start identifying compounded speeding offences as the warning they really are

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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Postby reohn2 » 5 May 2018, 2:12pm

The problem is poor driving standards and drivers lacking the ability to see that they are admiting to by complaining about being caught,weird is one term,stoopit is another
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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Postby Bonefishblues » 5 May 2018, 2:52pm

Having read the article I wonder if I am reading it correctly? The issue is specifically being raised about limits being set where the roads are clear. Issue doesn't seem to be being raised about limits per se, or the concept of smart motorways. Highways England has already altered its algorithm to improve matters, presumably in recognition that they were not optimal.

As a cyclist and motorist, I don't see the story?

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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Postby thirdcrank » 5 May 2018, 4:02pm

If this was something like "Highways Agency continues to develop smart motorway operation" there would be no story, or not enough of a story to attract attention. It needs something to make it newsworthy which is that some drivers have been fined for not complying with what must surely be the most prominently displayed speed limit signs on our roads.

As I've posted above and elsewhere, my own obviously limited experience of the M1 and M62 in West Yorkshire with this type of signal control is that when used for congestion busting - if I may coin the phrase - the posted limit is typically higher than the speed caused by the congestion eg signs showing 50 when 30 is the max physically possible without aggressively slaloming from lane to lane. I'm pretty sure that the only time I see a "relatively clear" motorway is when the hard shoulder is opened as a running lane and the 50 limit is imposed. AFAIK, that formula was the original version copied from the Netherlands(?) I believe that was based on the view that four lanes and no hard shoulder needs a lower speed to be safe. That's the set-up on the local bit of the M62.

However, on the local bit of the M1, the hard shoulder has been scrapped in favour of four (occasionally more) running lanes, normally subject to the national limit ie 70mph. That obviously implies that the original formula was over-cautious (or that the Highways Agency favours speed over safety; I don't know which.)

If a lower limit is imposed for safety reasons - usually explained by a message on the gantries - there may well be light traffic.

One thing for sure is that if a limit is set, by whatever system and for whatever reason, without prominent camera enforcement it will be observed by some drivers and disregarded by others, which can lead to extra problems.

I also believe that the back story here (new cliché but I rather like it) is that a lot of drivers, especially those with a tendency to speed, are influenced by the combination of urban myths and outdated explanations which gives the false impression that they can't touch you for it. Hence the indignation when they do.

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Re: Broken windows policy - STOP signs!

Postby Cyril Haearn » 6 Mar 2019, 5:37am

Poll gave the right result again, 87% :wink:
Cops stood by a stop sign near me, issued hundreds of tickets to illiterate motons
Problem solved soon after, stop sign was discreetly removed, -99

When driving I make sure to stop at some places without a stop sign, cyclists or kiddies may be crossing
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