Guardian: Nederland, more dead cyclists than motorists, e-bikes

[SA_SA_SA]

Surely it matters whether they are injuring themselves (their choice of risk should remain theirs) or innocent 3rd parties?

Do the statistics show which?

[Psamathe]

From personal experience and from press reports it seems that not having necessary skills is resulting in accidents (serious for riders and innocent 3rd parties). To an extent, pedalling alone becomes a natural limiter in that less fit and less experienced people don't have the ability to pedal at speeds that require faster reactions/better judgement/more experience. But give them a motor and they can (and do) hammer along without e.g. experience of how effective the brakes are at such speed with an obese rider (and thus are unable to stop in time), without appreciation of other road users, etc.

Personal experience? Most of the poor cycling I see is by very fit young cyclists. Elderly riders just potter along - although I can see why aggressive young riders might find that infuriating.

Sounds to me like you're either trying to get some sort of agreement on an ageist policy or perhaps you'd prefer a non-ageist policy that applies to everyone?
Compulsory bicycle training? You're starting to convince me...

Elderly riders just potter along until you put then on an e-bike with motor when they start charging along.

Sounds to me like you're either trying to get some sort of agreement on an ageist policy or perhaps you'd prefer a non-ageist policy that applies to everyone? as I said before, it has only been reported as an issue in the Netherlands so it's not up to me to "try and get" any sort of agreement. It is the statistics that point to an ageist issue (as others have pointed to above). Whilst MAMILs can be a nuisance charging along, they do (generally) have good control of their bikes and know things like braking distance, rights of way, etc. and can generally steer in a straight line (without bumping into others).

But as to "trying to get anything" - it is quite reasonable to discuss an issue without proposing policy to address that issue.

Poor cycling should be sorted. This older rider/e-bike issue seems to be something relatively new that has been identified by accident statistics. I believe that when a new problem is identified it is best to try and address that issue earlier rather than to ignore it and let it get worse, letting more cyclists injure themselves and innocent 3rd parties.

Ian

[kwackers]

Do the statistics show which?

What do you want them to show?

Ebikes are too fast?
Ebikes are dangerous?
Bikes are too fast?
Bikes are dangerous?
People in cars should be on bikes?
People on bikes should be in cars?
Old people can't ride bikes?
Old people can ride bikes but can't ride ebikes?
Old people should use the bus?
Ebikes are too heavy for old people?

Optional: 'cause them to injure themselves / injure innocent people'.


I think the statistics can be used to support your favoured viewpoint.

[Psamathe]

.....
This is happening. the Netherlands did have "light Mopeds" or "Speed Pedelecs" These have now been removed from teh cycle paths due to teh speed differential and placed on the roads......

Maybe somebody should tell the Dutch about that because they are still all using the cycle paths (and the signs indicating they are allowed to use them are still in place).

Ian

[kwackers]

This older rider/e-bike issue seems to be something relatively new that has been identified by accident statistics.

No it hasn't.

All the statistics show is that more older people are having accidents. Is that rate higher or lower than the increased take up?

As I said if more old people take up knitting then more of them will die whilst knitting.

[Phil Fouracre]

I think the statistics can be used to support your favoured viewpoint.

Lies, damned lies, and statistics!

Watch it, you can poke your eye out knitting! Safety glasses a must

[mjr]

I think the statistics can be used to support your favoured viewpoint.

Lies, damned lies, and statistics!

Figures can't lie, but liars can figure...

[Vorpal]

Transportøkonomisk Institute has studied this matter in some depth.

Sales of e-bikes have increased in recent years. This report investigates whether this will lead to an increased risk of bicycle accidents, and what are the risk factors for e-bikes. Some international studies have suggested that e-bikes have higher speed and higher risk, especially for elderly and for women, but the majority of studies do not find any increased risk of e-bikes. We conducted a survey of 6237 people in 9 Norwegian cities about cycling and bicycle accidents, as well as a follow-up survey of 390 respondents who had a bicycle accident. The results of the survey do not indicate that e-bikes have a higher accident risk than other bicycles. Women, especially the elderly, were overrepresented in e-bike accidents, but this may be related to exposure. There were more balance-related accidents among e-bike users. To conclude: the risk for cyclists will not increase because of increased e-bike sales.

Most of the report is in Norwegian. Google does a reasonable job of translating it.

https://www.toi.no/getfile.php?mmfileid=47803

[Cunobelin]

The reason it has become a headline in the Netherlands is that for the first time cycle deaths outnumber vehicle deaths

Does this show the vehicles of the deceased or the killers?

Nope the report states that the majority of accide are still the vehicles fault


There is still no evidence whether E-Bikes are more dangerous

[Cunobelin]

It is interestingg how the slower than average speed of e-bikes is a danger...especially considering that most of the accidents are when mounting and dismounting

Perhaps we need to train these riders not to mount and dismount at high speed?

[Cunobelin]

.....
This is happening. the Netherlands did have "light Mopeds" or "Speed Pedelecs" These have now been removed from teh cycle paths due to teh speed differential and placed on the roads......

Maybe somebody should tell the Dutch about that because they are still all using the cycle paths (and the signs indicating they are allowed to use them are still in place).

Ian

Please see the previous post, the legislation is in place, how it is enforced is up to the Dutch

[The utility cyclist]

There is unequivocally the fact that males over 65 years form a major portion of the fatalities with 2/3 of all cycle deaths being in this range.

Because 18% of the deaths were E-Bikes and 31 out of the 38 E-Bike deaths were males over 65 there is an assumption of increased danger. What has not been done is to look at just how many of these individuals would have had the same outcome on an ordinary bike.What E-Bikes have done is effectively increase the number of over 65 year old riders. The fact that the number of accidents doubled may just reflect the booming sales in this age group. That is twice as many on the road, twice as many accidents.

Also a possibility is that as an already at risk group increases both in numbers and age, other factors such as the ability to react in traffic and respond to obstacles is decreased as a function of the rider's cognition rather than bike style

It is also noticeable that the research admits that "Statistics Netherlands does not go into the causes of the crashes", so we have no actual idea of what caused these deaths.

There is absolutely no hard evidence that E-Bikes are the issue, it is purely conjecture.

Please cite your source of doubling of over 65s cycling?
fact is you're guessing and the numbers do not add up to make your point valid in any way.

As one gets older the easily available speed of an assisted bike means this increases the situations when you unable to react/brake roperly - if you can have on tap a speed that is 50% faster than you can cycle you're less likely to be able to adapt immediately or indeed be able to work out the speed/distance/time problem when braking and reacting to unfolding scenarios.
So yes it is the type of bike, because the bike enables faster speeds than normal by its very design and indeed is part of the selling point of e-bikes. Human beings are humans in their thinking, even one member here talks about the fun side of going faster on an e-bike, everyone is affected, you can't help it though some have more control than others.

If as you say cycling in the over 65s has doubled that a massively significant number in a country where over 65s already cycle a lot, that would be removing a heck of a lot of motoring, so why is the under 65 age groups with low rate buying e-bike having fewer deaths and the over 65s having a massive spike that is on the same factor as uptake? That doesn't stack up in any case because fewer motors and those over 65s are actually per mile travelled more dangerous in terms of reactions when coming across people on bikes, safety in numbers etc. When you have circa 60 deaths where segregated crosses a road then reducing the over 65s out of motors should see more improvements in cycling deaths because you've removed a significant proportion of motorists.

Sorry but it doesn't add up with your explanation, there's only one that does and that's the huge increase in e-bike use.

[kwackers]

Sorry but it doesn't add up with your explanation, there's only one that does and that's the huge increase in e-bike use.

You can't claim someones explanation is rubbish and then use the same techniques of assumption and figure interpreting to justify your own.

Why does someone over 65 make allowances for their age when driving a car but not on a bike?
I can answer that one; they don't, but then it doesn't fit your reasoning.

It reminds me of all the excuses motorists use when complaining about cyclists, why can't they be honest and say "I just don't like cyclists!".
Similarly I think some folk should just hold their hands up and say "I just don't like ebikes!".
The reason neither group does is the same; they'd feel like dicks, much better to look for excuses because having an actual reason makes them feel better. Even one that's entirely in their head.

Ebikes are here. Older riders will ride them. Get over it.

[Psamathe]

This older rider/e-bike issue seems to be something relatively new that has been identified by accident statistics.

No it hasn't.

All the statistics show is that more older people are having accidents. Is that rate higher or lower than the increased take up?

As I said if more old people take up knitting then more of them will die whilst knitting.

The dutch I chatted to said there was a disproportionate accident rate. Earlier in this thread[quote="Tinnishill"]AtoB magazine of May 2018 had a two page report of ebike safety analysis by the German Insurers Accident Research Unit (the UDV). You would have to pay AtoB 99 pence for a read of the whole article, but the bottom line is there is a roughly 10% increased actuarial risk for over 65’s taking up ebikeing after a long absence from cycling. (Quelle surprise.)

What I find quite shocking is that if the story were older people taking up driving high performance cars causing disproportionate increase in accidents (including to 3rd parties) people here would be crying out for regulation. But given it's e-bikes then those with e-bikes get all defensive denying there is an issue (which reports say there is), denying personal experience of others, all being defensive because they also ride bikes. Disproportionate increased accident rates seem accepted by other e-bike riders because they like/ride e-bikes. Maybe they are worried about regulation affecting their e-bike.

With cars there is to an extent a limiting constraint of insurance costs. An 80 year old with little past driving experience would have difficulty getting insurance cover if they went and purchased a Lotus - so few do and thus higher accident rates (from their driving car they are not capable of properly/safely controlling) are not seen. There is no comparative limiting constraint with e-bikes so people without adequate experience buy them, hammer around and, according to reports (in the Netherlands) are causing disproportionate number of accidents.

And the shock to me is how those with e-bike happily accept this increased accident rate because they are e-bikers. Do the same in cars and those same people would be crying out for change, regulation and enforcement.

Ian

[Cyril Haearn]

Plus One

When I am old and frail I shall get a slow upright trike, maybe with a motor but slow

Sooner or later I shall give up cycling