Guardian: Nederland, more dead cyclists than motorists, e-bikes

[Cyril Haearn]

Speed kills

[Cunobelin]

This is the opinion of the Netherlands Ministry of Infrastructure and the annual Institute of Transport Policy Analysis report "Cycling facts"



All anyone who wishes to continue th myth of all the elderly riders dashing around at higher speeds needs to do now is provide evidence that disproves this

[kwackers]

All anyone who wishes to continue th myth of all the elderly riders dashing around at higher speeds needs to do now is provide evidence that disproves this

Don't be daft. When you have an anti-ebike / anti-oap or whatever nonsense some folk on here are trying to peddle then you take the numbers and twist them to suit your agenda.

Anecdotally all of the crap riding, poor skills, lack of consideration for other road users, excessive speed and loss of control I've seen have been the province of the young riders. Can't say I've ever seen a pensioner doing anything stupid, let along barrelling along at warp speed.

YouTube is full of young idiots on bikes, I haven't managed to find a single out of control pensioner on there...

Interestingly, despite an estimated 1 in 3 or so of the bikes I see being eBikes (particularly in the city centre) I haven't seen any behaving recklessly.
It's almost as if those who buy them simply want something that's easy to get around on without any fuss and are happy to tootle around.
Mountain bikes on the other hand are bouncing on and off pavements, cutting across traffic, weaving through cars and peds - I've seen 3 incidences in the past 6 months of some youth lying on the floor waiting for an ambulance within 400m of my office!

[Psamathe]

However the analogy does work in one way though, the fact that both e-bikes and ordinary bikes are travelling at the same speed and therefore any problem with reaction times, etc would be applicable to all, reinforcing the sensible decision to educate ALL elderly cyclists

In my experience e-bikes are accelerating faster and they are allowing older people to travel faster than they would without the powered support. So each elderly rider whose capabilities would probably be fine and safe at the speed they could manage unpowered is actually travelling at the same speed as a younger, fitter person with less momentum, faster reactions, the flexibility to look behind them, awareness of others, etc.

To be honest from my experience it would be difficult to find an over 65 cyclist without a battery pack for comparisons. They are everywhere.

Ian

[Vorpal]

I think that you will find that there is data about speeds of electric bikes, as well. In the study I linked above from TØI, this is one of the things they looked at. Although average speeds in most studies was a little higher for cyclists on e-bikes than unpowered, it wasn't a big difference, except for one study. The studies are referenced in the TØI study, so that could be pursued, if it was something that a person was really interested in.

Basically, there simply isn't lots of evidence to support the theory that older folks are getting on e-bikes and having lots of crashes.

[landsurfer]

E-bikes are not bikes IMHO
Old/frail people can use trikes and go as slow as they like
Anything that reduces speed is welcome

Banning Bicycles.... that would reduce speed ...(cyclical humour attempt .. before i get jumped on)

[Psamathe]

I think that you will find that there is data about speeds of electric bikes, as well. In the study I linked above from TØI, this is one of the things they looked at. Although average speeds in most studies was a little higher for cyclists on e-bikes than unpowered, it wasn't a big difference, except for one study. The studies are referenced in the TØI study, so that could be pursued, if it was something that a person was really interested in.

Basically, there simply isn't lots of evidence to support the theory that older folks are getting on e-bikes and having lots of crashes.

It more complex not just about the speed of e-bikes but about the age distribution of the speed. Reaction times reduce as people get older. When controlling a vehicle reaction time in relation to speed becomes important so an older person travelling at the same speed as a younger person can represent a greater risk. Before the recent massive uptake of e-bikes relying on pedal power was a "self-correcting" system as older people travelled slower, etc.

In addition, my personal observations is that there were a significant number of obese elderly people travelling at these higher speeds. And a 110Kg person will discover their brakes are not as effective as for a 60Kg person (and on occasions with predictable results (I'm glad my reaction times were adequate)).

My impression is that the massive uptake of e-bikes in NL is relatively recent so I'd think it is still early days for these statistics.

You mentioned about the insurance company figures, commenting they were not relevant because they were only to generate profits for insurance companies, but I can't see how these companies would be making money from identifying higher risk for older people as I can't see what policies/premiums they would be making their profits from (it's not like driving where we get cover for ourselves in a specified vehicle and they assess our personal risk). In the UK I'm covered by a generic 3rd party liability under my house insurance (so no higher premium because I cycle and am over 60). Does e.g. CTC charge higher premiums for their 3rd party cover (under membership)?

Ian

[Cunobelin]

However the analogy does work in one way though, the fact that both e-bikes and ordinary bikes are travelling at the same speed and therefore any problem with reaction times, etc would be applicable to all, reinforcing the sensible decision to educate ALL elderly cyclists

In my experience e-bikes are accelerating faster and they are allowing older people to travel faster than they would without the powered support.

Again, we need to look at the actual evidence.....there are lots of people who would have us all wearing helmets because of their personal observation and anecdote, despite the evidence

The evidence still shows this NOT to be the case

So each elderly rider whose capabilities would probably be fine and safe at the speed they could manage unpowered is actually travelling at the same speed as a younger, fitter person with less momentum, faster reactions, the flexibility to look behind them, awareness of others, etc.

The evidence again shows that this is NOT the case. The at risk elderly groups are travelling at the same speeds on both ordinary and e=bikes. They also travel slower than younger riders.

The reality is that there are two 75 year olds travelling at the same speed, yet suddenly one require faster reactions, the flexibility to look behind them, awareness of others, etc, whilst the other apparently does not. A rater silly viewpoint

The fact recognised by the Netherlands is that BOTH riders are in an at risk group and that the risks are similar...... hence educate BOTH

To be honest from my experience it would be difficult to find an over 65 cyclist without a battery pack for comparisons. They are everywhere.

Ian

Just as well the Netherlands Transport Ministry looked at thousands and came up with the evidence that the elderly e-bike rider does not ttravel faster, does not travel at the same speed as younger riders and that the risks for an elderly person is such that BOTH groups need to be addressed

[Cunobelin]

I think that you will find that there is data about speeds of electric bikes, as well. In the study I linked above from TØI, this is one of the things they looked at. Although average speeds in most studies was a little higher for cyclists on e-bikes than unpowered, it wasn't a big difference, except for one study. The studies are referenced in the TØI study, so that could be pursued, if it was something that a person was really interested in.

Basically, there simply isn't lots of evidence to support the theory that older folks are getting on e-bikes and having lots of crashes.

It more complex not just about the speed of e-bikes but about the age distribution of the speed. Reaction times reduce as people get older. When controlling a vehicle reaction time in relation to speed becomes important so an older person travelling at the same speed as a younger person can represent a greater risk. Before the recent massive uptake of e-bikes relying on pedal power was a "self-correcting" system as older people travelled slower, etc.

Except yet again, there is no actual evidence to support either claim. The for the elderly riders in the Netherlands, travelling AT THE SAME SPEED on both ordinary and e-bikes, and that the elderly riders DO NOT TRAVEL AT THE SAME SPEED AS YOUNGER RIDERS. This hypothesis is fatally flawed a the two premises ate not supported by evidence

In addition, my personal observations is that there were a significant number of obese elderly people travelling at these higher speeds. And a 110Kg person will discover their brakes are not as effective as for a 60Kg person (and on occasions with predictable results (I'm glad my reaction times were adequate)).

Again, this is the same for both an e-bike and an ordinary bike, larger riders require longer to brake. However more importantly, there is the same flaw in that these people are NOT according to the evidence travelling faster, but at the same speed.

My impression is that the massive uptake of e-bikes in NL is relatively recent so I'd think it is still early days for these statistics.

[/quote]

The Netherland data goes back 10 years, more than adequate


As with "cycling is too dangerous - get cycles off the roads", "cyclist should wear helmets" anecdotal evidence is really insufficient, and can be dangerous to the. debate

[kwackers]

Again, this is the same for both an e-bike and an ordinary bike, larger riders require longer to brake. However more importantly, there is the same flaw in that these people are NOT according to the evidence travelling faster, but at the same speed.

I'm confused, is it just fat old people we're trying to get off bikes or fat people in general?
Fat people ime can go extremely quickly particularly when assisted by gravity...

I wonder if we need a cut off, if it's too low then simply being stocky/muscular might be dangerous.
Perhaps for safety's sake cycling should be left to petite folk only.

[RickH]

This is the opinion of the Netherlands Ministry of Infrastructure and the annual Institute of Transport Policy Analysis report "Cycling facts"



All anyone who wishes to continue th myth of all the elderly riders dashing around at higher speeds needs to do now is provide evidence that disproves this

The interesting thing I see in those figures is that older riders are going further rather than faster on e-bikes (the highest average distance per trip of any group is for Ages 75+ on e-bikes with 65-74s on e-bikes in second place).

If their speed is more-or-less the same but they are going further, even if the risk of accident is the same there will be more accidents because of the increased exposure to that risk.

[kwackers]

The interesting thing I see in those figures is that older riders are going further rather than faster on e-bikes (the highest average distance per trip of any group is for Ages 75+ on e-bikes with 65-74s on e-bikes in second place).

If their speed is more-or-less the same but they are going further, even if the risk of accident is the same there will be more accidents because of the increased exposure to that risk.

It's shocking to think that I might be part of the problem, upping my mileage from 2000 or so unassisted miles to in excess of 10000 assisted miles!
And approaching 58 years old with my failing sight and poor response times I'm a danger to all and sundry!

[Cunobelin]

Again, this is the same for both an e-bike and an ordinary bike, larger riders require longer to brake. However more importantly, there is the same flaw in that these people are NOT according to the evidence travelling faster, but at the same speed.

I'm confused, is it just fat old people we're trying to get off bikes or fat people in general?
Fat people ime can go extremely quickly particularly when assisted by gravity...

I wonder if we need a cut off, if it's too low then simply being stocky/muscular might be dangerous.
Perhaps for safety's sake cycling should be left to petite folk only.

My apologies if this post has confused things

There is an ill informed significant bias against e-bikes, claiming that every user is incapable of controlling them because of excess speed, because they weigh more, they can’t stop

The evidence invalidates these claims

These issues are the same for both ordinary bikes and e-bikes

My MiL managed an extra 15 years of cycling due to an e-bike, my wife an additional 5

Anything that allows the prolonging of cycling is a poisitive benefit and of that allows someone overweaight, elderly or disabled to prolong their cycling it has my full support

That is the point that is becoming evident in the Netherlands the issue is that elderly rides are more at risk, because of their frailty the injuries are more severe and a series of other issues. This is a problem for ALL cyclists in this age group

The plan is to address these issues as a whole

However there are those whose biased views cannot see past the e-bike bigotry and recognise the wider picture

The Netherlands Ministry of Transport recognises that extended cycling causes issues and hat the evidence is that there is a higher risk,across the board for this group

[kwackers]

My apologies if this post has confused things

No apology required, I'm just trying to get a handle on what people's real issue is with ebikes.

Reminds me of car drivers complaining about RLJ'ing, yet the same folk don't seem to give a hoot that car drivers do the same and kill people doing it.
The problem it turns out isn't the RLJ'ing, it's that they don't like cyclists but they can't or won't admit it.

[Bmblbzzz]

The speed graph from NL relates to overall journey speeds. From observation, ebikes don't only allow higher peak speeds – which are probably more attractive to younger people, as indicated by the graph – but to an even greater extent, they allow higher speeds in low-speed circumstances: up hill is the most obvious one, or into a headwind, and perhaps more pertinently when talking about e-bike deaths, through chicanes, over speed bumps, and in traffic. Which highlights the point that we don't know how these deaths occurred; we only know they happened while riding an e-bike, not whether they were multivehicle collisions (and if so, in what circumstances?), single vehicle crashes (again, in what circumstances?), heart attacks, etc.