Why isn't there a cycles on trains campaigns from Cycling UK?

reohn2
Posts: 45186
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: Why isn't there a cycles on trains campaigns from Cycling UK?

Post by reohn2 »

horizon wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
Because train companies are primarily in it for profit and not providing a service to the public,all they want is the maximum number of paying fares on any given train,as a result disabled people and other "oddities misfits and minorities" are thought of last in their overall scheme of things.



Beautifully put if I may say so. :D

I didn't want to post "money grabbing debacle" :wink:
-----------------------------------------------------------
"All we are not stares back at what we are"
W H Auden
jgurney
Posts: 1214
Joined: 10 May 2009, 8:34am

Re: Why isn't there a cycles on trains campaigns from Cycling UK?

Post by jgurney »

atoz wrote:Perhaps we've all strayed from the original post- which is why Cycling UK isn't campaigning on this.

I want Cycling UK to address the question as follows, as we know they read forum posts:

1. Why is there no updated policy on cycles carried on trains


I suspect it might help towards such a policy if we cyclists were clearer about quite what we wanted.
What form of storage? Do we mind stripping off baggage?
Bike storage in passenger accommodation or not?
Are we willing to have it on slower less busy secondary routes where these exist?
Do we want advance booking or not?
Etc,....
SA_SA_SA
Posts: 2363
Joined: 31 Oct 2009, 1:46pm

Re: Why isn't there a cycles on trains campaigns from Cycling UK?

Post by SA_SA_SA »

atoz wrote:
SA_SA_SA wrote:If cyclists represented extra money (a cycle fare==extra half fare) surely that would encourage provision?


We pay enough for train fares as it is. Disabled people are not charged extra for using public transport. Why should cyclists?

Because then cyclists are then an avoidable cost rather than a source of income. If cyclists want extra space in a commercial business then paying extra seems reasonable otherwise it seems predictable that the companies will only do the minimum/discourage them.
------------You may not use this post in Cycle or other magazine ------ 8)
atoz
Posts: 592
Joined: 5 Jan 2007, 4:50pm

Re: Why isn't there a cycles on trains campaigns from Cycling UK?

Post by atoz »

SA_SA_SA wrote:
atoz wrote:
SA_SA_SA wrote:If cyclists represented extra money (a cycle fare==extra half fare) surely that would encourage provision?


We pay enough for train fares as it is. Disabled people are not charged extra for using public transport. Why should cyclists?

Because then cyclists are then an avoidable cost rather than a source of income. If cyclists want extra space in a commercial business then paying extra seems reasonable otherwise it seems predictable that the companies will only do the minimum/discourage them.


The "avoidable cost" may choose to travel instead by car- making a mockery of cycling's claim to be sustainble transport. If 4 cyclists choose to do this, it could mean 4 extra cars (most car drivers are single users). Multily this by the amount of deterred cyclists that can't travel to work using bikes on trains. It's not a good thought. Bear also in mind that the average carriage seats around 70 or slightly more..

Railways are actually a public service. If the only rail services available were paid for by profits, most of the network would be gone practically overnight. Ever heard of the Beeching report? We now have a privatised network which costs more to run than BR, many times over. The consequences of profit only based operation are too terrible to consider- even Thatcher was wise enough to steer clear. Do you really want endless queues of cars in every town and city in the UK? In the real world, we have to subsidise railways, it just is how you do it.

The real issue is that under privatisation the rail companies were allowed to actively discrminate against both disabled users and cyclist- rubber stamped by the government. There is potential litigation coming over accessiblity provision, but it affects cyclists as well. It is possble to be discrimnated twice over by this.

Just because rail companies behave badly, encouraged by right wing governments, it doesn't mean we have to accept it. And if we don't, Cycling UK need to campaign..
StephenW
Posts: 158
Joined: 22 Sep 2010, 11:33am

Re: Why isn't there a cycles on trains campaigns from Cycling UK?

Post by StephenW »

jgurney wrote:I suspect it might help towards such a policy if we cyclists were clearer about quite what we wanted.


Yes, this is a good point. I can't speak for everyone, but I'll set out below what I would like to see. I've divided this up according to the type of rail route: commuter routes, fast inter-city services, and lightly-traffic rural routes. In a previous post jgurney set out some different types of cycle-rail journey. Hopefully what I am describing below will fit in to that.

Commuter routes
I would like to see a small number of dedicated cycle spaces, which must be paid for, and may be booked in advance. In addition, I would like to see large areas around the doors with either tip-up seats or no seats. These are for standing passengers during peak times, but during off-peak times cycles can be carried there for free, without reservation.
My thinking is:
- Space is at a premium at peak times. It is reasonable to ask people to pay to take a bike at these times.
- Open areas near the doors make standing more pleasant, and will also reduce dwell time at the station when the train is really busy.
- Carrying a non-folding bike on the train for commuting purposes is not a mass solution. For peak-time commuting, it is much better if people can either use a folder, or there is secure cycle storage at the destination, and people keep a second bike there.
- Leisure cycling will tend to occur at different times of the day/week to commuting.
- Since the stops are fairly close together, and thus people may not be taking their bike a long way, it is preferable for bikes to be in the passenger accommodation. They can be just propped up or held onto by their owner, rather than hanging from a hook.

Fast inter-city services
The key here is consistency I think. I am not too bothered whether the bikes are in passenger accommodation or the guard's van, or whether bikes are hung from a hook or not, so long as it is consistent. There also need to be a lot more bike spaces than at present. These should be a mixture of reservable and non-reservable. I think it is reasonable to pay for carrying a bike on this kind of service, proportionate to the cost of the ticket. The booking system should automatically ensure that if you reserve a seat and a bike space at the same time, they are located near to each other in the train.

Lightly-used rural routes
There should be plenty of cycle spaces on routes like this, because it may be several hours until the next train comes. Since these routes are lightly-used, space is unlikely to be at a premium. This is where mostly leisure cycling is likely to be happening, especially touring. A mixture of reservable and non-reservable spaces would probably be best. Taking a bike should be free on this kind of service. This kind of route tends to be loss-making (I think), and I think that cycle-tourism could provide a significant boost to passenger numbers.

In general, it is of course important that the cycle spaces are actually big enough to accommodate a large adult bicycle!

Consistency between different Train Operating Companies is also important.

Whether it is better to have a state-run railway or not is an interesting question. However, even under the current arrangement, I am sure there are ways that things could be changed. For example, DfT could specify how cycles are to be carried in their franchise contracts. Or, there could be a voluntary accreditation scheme, where certain standards are specified, and if a TOC chooses to meet these standards, they are allowed to call themselves a "Cycle-friendly train company", and receive some kind of bonus, or are allowed to charge for carrying bikes. Or there could be bronze, silver and gold levels.
SA_SA_SA
Posts: 2363
Joined: 31 Oct 2009, 1:46pm

Re: Why isn't there a cycles on trains campaigns from Cycling UK?

Post by SA_SA_SA »

atoz wrote:...

Until Utopia arrives I think paying extra now to encourage train companies to view cyclists as revenue and gaining better cycle carring ability is better than looking to future whilst gradually losing the ability to travel by train with bike easily now.

Also, some persons think the rot started when BR offered free cycle carriage (Silver Jubilee time?) when they still had guards vans, then when moved to DMUs /EMUs rather less space was allocated to cyclists. BR were state owned,,,,,,

I don't think it is appropriate to mention right-wing-ness: it would be perfectly possible to have a right wing government policy of liking trains carrying cycles....
------------You may not use this post in Cycle or other magazine ------ 8)
Vorpal
Moderator
Posts: 20720
Joined: 19 Jan 2009, 3:34pm
Location: Not there ;)

Re: Why isn't there a cycles on trains campaigns from Cycling UK?

Post by Vorpal »

What are cycle spaces, and where do Tandem and Trailer go?
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
― Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom
pete75
Posts: 16370
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Why isn't there a cycles on trains campaigns from Cycling UK?

Post by pete75 »

On Thursday I was on a train in Latvia. Carriages had spaces for six bikes hanging by front wheel though there were folding seats in the same area.
Whoever designs our train carriages should go and have a look at those in Latvia and they'd find a simple way to reduce overcrowding - make the damn things wider. Latvian carriage have three seats on each side of the aisle rather than the two found here. The seats are also a bit wider than Uk ones and the aisle is also wider. 50% more capacity for the same length of carriage. Perhaps they could also go to Holland and look at their double decker trains.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
User avatar
mjr
Posts: 20337
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 7:06pm
Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
Contact:

Re: Why isn't there a cycles on trains campaigns from Cycling UK?

Post by mjr »

Simple but expensive. Most of our railway corridors are narrow and low and we get trains that can go along most of them because they don't plan far ahead where the trains will be used later in their lives.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.
Cyril Haearn
Posts: 15215
Joined: 30 Nov 2013, 11:26am

Re: Why isn't there a cycles on trains campaigns from Cycling UK?

Post by Cyril Haearn »

reohn2 wrote:
horizon wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
Because train companies are primarily in it for profit and not providing a service to the public,all they want is the maximum number of paying fares on any given train,as a result disabled people and other "oddities misfits and minorities" are thought of last in their overall scheme of things.



Beautifully put if I may say so. :D

I didn't want to post "money grabbing debacle" :wink:

They just want to make money, right, and will go to great lengths to disadvantage competitors
Nationalisation is the solution!
Entertainer, juvenile, curmudgeon, PoB, 30120
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras, we hate bullies
millimole
Posts: 910
Joined: 18 Feb 2007, 5:41pm
Location: Leicester

Re: Why isn't there a cycles on trains campaigns from Cycling UK?

Post by millimole »

pete75 wrote:
Whoever designs our train carriages should go and have a look at those in Latvia and they'd find a simple way to reduce overcrowding - make the damn things wider. .

AFAIR Latvia is on the old Russian gauge which allows for slightly wider trains than the rest of Europe. Trains from the FSU states are unable to run on other networks without a bogie change. The Baltic states are going to be investing heavily in a new railway network to overcome this issue (and to spite the Russians)


I'm a trendy consumer. Just look at my wobbly using hovercraft full of eels.
Leicester; Riding my Hetchins since 1971; Day rides on my Dawes; Going to the shops on a Decathlon Hoprider
Cyril Haearn
Posts: 15215
Joined: 30 Nov 2013, 11:26am

Re: Why isn't there a cycles on trains campaigns from Cycling UK?

Post by Cyril Haearn »

pete75 wrote:On Thursday I was on a train in Latvia. Carriages had spaces for six bikes hanging by front wheel though there were folding seats in the same area.
Whoever designs our train carriages should go and have a look at those in Latvia and they'd find a simple way to reduce overcrowding - make the damn things wider. Latvian carriage have three seats on each side of the aisle rather than the two found here. The seats are also a bit wider than Uk ones and the aisle is also wider. 50% more capacity for the same length of carriage. Perhaps they could also go to Holland and look at their double decker trains.

Trains cannae be made wider because the UK loading gauge is tight
Likewise double-deckers, Bulleid built some but they were just not practical, the upper and lower deck overlapped
Entertainer, juvenile, curmudgeon, PoB, 30120
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras, we hate bullies
Cyril Haearn
Posts: 15215
Joined: 30 Nov 2013, 11:26am

Re: Why isn't there a cycles on trains campaigns from Cycling UK?

Post by Cyril Haearn »

millimole wrote:
pete75 wrote:
Whoever designs our train carriages should go and have a look at those in Latvia and they'd find a simple way to reduce overcrowding - make the damn things wider. .

AFAIR Latvia is on the old Russian gauge which allows for slightly wider trains than the rest of Europe. Trains from the FSU states are unable to run on other networks without a bogie change. The Baltic states are going to be investing heavily in a new railway network to overcome this issue (and to spite the Russians)


I'm a trendy consumer. Just look at my gormless idiot phone.

Trains run through from Berlin to Moscow, the wheels are adjusted at the border so the passengers need not change
Ireland (north and south) has a broader gauge too

Maybe Brunel had it right
Or maybe Lartigue? :wink:
Entertainer, juvenile, curmudgeon, PoB, 30120
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras, we hate bullies
pete75
Posts: 16370
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 2:37pm

Re: Why isn't there a cycles on trains campaigns from Cycling UK?

Post by pete75 »

Cyril Haearn wrote:
pete75 wrote:On Thursday I was on a train in Latvia. Carriages had spaces for six bikes hanging by front wheel though there were folding seats in the same area.
Whoever designs our train carriages should go and have a look at those in Latvia and they'd find a simple way to reduce overcrowding - make the damn things wider. Latvian carriage have three seats on each side of the aisle rather than the two found here. The seats are also a bit wider than Uk ones and the aisle is also wider. 50% more capacity for the same length of carriage. Perhaps they could also go to Holland and look at their double decker trains.

Trains cannae be made wider because the UK loading gauge is tight
Likewise double-deckers, Bulleid built some but they were just not practical, the upper and lower deck overlapped

Latvian gauge is 1520mm , UK 1435mm ie just 85mm less. With six seats and a corridor that 85mm would be easy to lose and so make the carriages fit on UK gauge.

Instead of using the type of double decker built by Bulleid we could use the Dutch type. Their decks don't overlap. BTW the Dutch use the same gauge as the UK.
'Give me my bike, a bit of sunshine - and a stop-off for a lunchtime pint - and I'm a happy man.' - Reg Baker
Cyril Haearn
Posts: 15215
Joined: 30 Nov 2013, 11:26am

Re: Why isn't there a cycles on trains campaigns from Cycling UK?

Post by Cyril Haearn »

The problem is the loading gauge, bridges and tunnels, not the track gauge

Big wide vehicles are possible on narrow gauge, in Japan or NZ for example

I think the GCR, the last main line, had a bigger loading gauge

The train companies would already have introduced double-deckers if they could €€€
Entertainer, juvenile, curmudgeon, PoB, 30120
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras, we hate bullies
Post Reply