Why isn't there a cycles on trains campaigns from Cycling UK?

[Vorpal]

I'm not sure that we're talking about the same thing. On my trips to the Netherlands, I haven't observed many bikes on trains, though it was simple enough to take mine when I wanted to, I noticed some have the same peak times restrictions as the worst of the UK operators.
I don't disagree that more thought needs to be given to how the people living in the 24,000 new homes need to move about, though better that they live where less travel is needed. If you're suggesting that making space for more bikes on trains is a solution, I doubt it'll ever be more than a tiny part of it.

I'm not suggesting that it needs to be a primary solution. Dutch planners mainly see it as a family travel / leisure solution, while commuting is cycle/walk to station and cycle/walk to work on the other side. Bikes are banned on some trains at peak times to maximise person capacity. I don't entirely agree with that as a solution, but I also don't think that millions of people are suddenly going to want to take their bikes on trains.

What they may do is put the family with their bikes on the trains for a day out, something that is currently not feasible on many UK services because of two-bike limits, disallowing tandems and trailers, etc.

[horizon]

vorpal: I think what PH is saying is that the bike space is there already but isn't used - there is already enough.

I disagree. There were at least 24 bikes on our train back from Dover last week. Our group had 6 of them (1 folding). The train had space for 6. I really expected the guard to order most of us off, as we were clearly obstructing passage through the train. It's stupid to have boat trains with so little luggage capacity (not only bike capacity).

Two bikes per train would mean that our group alone would fill bike spaces of three consecutive services.

mjr: you are both right and wrong IMV .

Most of the time, bikes spaces aren't used, or hardly at all, even when trains are quite full. When I was bumped off a train recently all four bike spaces were available but used by flap-down seat passengers. My rule of thumb of two bikes per carriage (not per train) probably covers it most of the time.

And then there are rush hours, holidays, boat trains etc etc. Even LEJOG has an impact on our Cornwall service. That has to be dealt with. In campaigning for more space we have to be careful about what we are asking for. On our very local service (Looe to Liskeard) it would be possible for a family to ride to Looe and then take the train back to Liskeard. Except that there are only two bike spaces. The absurd requirement to cram on as many seats as possible is what is making this so difficult. But most of the time, two is enough.

[mjr]

Most of the time, bikes spaces aren't used, or hardly at all, even when trains are quite full. When I was bumped off a train recently all four bike spaces were available but used by flap-down seat passengers. My rule of thumb of two bikes per carriage (not per train) probably covers it most of the time.

I still disagree. Two bikes per carriage is better than two per train but still not enough. This low and unpredictable capacity means that people don't take bikes, don't take trains or don't take either.

Most off-peak trains through Cambridge are currently four bikes per carriage (class 387) and it seems that's still often not enough.

The problem with PH's observation:

For most of the time, mine was the only bike on the train, in my travels this is pretty common. I'm all for better public transport and more integration, I'm not sure campaigning for more bikes on trains is that high a priority.

is that it's rather like suggesting there's little need for wider doorways because not many people are fitting through the current narrow ones.

How high a priority is it? Well, it's not as high as Road Justice or space4cycling IMO, but it's still pretty important because without it, people wanting to ride the last mile either have to travel the whole journey much more slowly, rent bikes at the destination (which is why it's a conflict of interest to have train companies operating cycle hire themselves) or be condemned to getting driving licences and perpetuating part of the problem with our roads.

[PH]

vorpal: I think what PH is saying is that the bike space is there already but isn't used - there is already enough.

I disagree. There were at least 24 bikes on our train back from Dover last week. Our group had 6 of them (1 folding). The train had space for 6. I really expected the guard to order most of us off, as we were clearly obstructing passage through the train. It's stupid to have boat trains with so little luggage capacity (not only bike capacity).

Two bikes per train would mean that our group alone would fill bike spaces of three consecutive services. That's ridiculous. It would be even worse on non-reservable services where who knows how long we'd have to wait for cyclists ahead of us before we could board.

I doubt we'll risk bikes on trains late in the day again until something changes. There's just not enough capacity on routes that tourists want to use. I suspect we'll either ride to/from Harwich or hire a van to carry the bikes. I think we can still drive a crew-cab van on a basic car licence. Many European railway operators must be micturating themselves laughing at this complete and utter failure to integrate more sustainable transport methods.

I don't disagree, there are routes and services where more cycle capacity would be entirely practical and possible with the right will, probably even profitable. My experience is that's not the case on many routes where much of the capacity that's already exists isn't used. Though no one knows how many would be using it if there was more, or it was simpler and easier to understand.
There are huge problems with the UK's transport policy, my opinion remains that bikes on trains isn't high on the list of things that would make much difference.

[mjr]

I don't disagree, there are routes and services where more cycle capacity would be entirely practical and possible with the right will, probably even profitable. My experience is that's not the case on many routes where much of the capacity that's already exists isn't used. Though no one knows how many would be using it if there was more, or it was simpler and easier to understand.
There are huge problems with the UK's transport policy, my opinion remains that bikes on trains isn't high on the list of things that would make much difference.

Maybe not that much difference to the UK's transport policy, but it could make quite a big different to cycle-tourism.

I wonder how many of the trains with underused bike capacity have been "cascaded" there (such as the 125s now used by DB CrossCountry) and how many of the trains with insufficient capacity are relatively new trains ordered with unsuitable interiors for their intended services, possibly to maximise paying seats over non-paying luggage space as horizon suggests (such as the class 387s I mentioned and I suspect is the case with GWR's new Intercity Express Trains).

[jgurney]

There were at least 24 bikes on our train back from Dover last week.... The train had space for 6. I really expected the guard to order most of us off, as we were clearly obstructing passage through the train. It's stupid to have boat trains with so little luggage capacity

Since the opening of the tunnel and the closure of the Docks station, South-Eastern do not consider their trains to Dover to be boat trains any more.

Really the nearest Britain has left to boat trains are the services to Heysham Port, Fishguard/Abergwaun and Holyhead/Caergybi. The semi-fast Colchester commuter train extended to Harwich International is a pale shadow of the loco-hauled express which once linked the port to London.
Newhaven Marine, Tyne Quay, Weymouth Quay and Folkestone Harbour are all gone like Dover Western Docks. Stranraer has trains but no ships, Poole Quay has ships but only a disused freight siding beside the port car park and while Southampton has two intact station buildings in the Eastern and Western docks, I think the last time a charter train met a cruise ship at either was two years ago.

[atoz]

Perhaps we've all strayed from the original post- which is why Cycling UK isn't campaigning on this.

I want Cycling UK to address the question as follows, as we know they read forum posts:

1. Why is there no updated policy on cycles carried on trains
2. Why are Cycling UK not campaigning on such a policy.
3. When might we expect Cycling UK to campaign on such a policy.
4. Are they prepared to work together with other interested organisations to challenge discrmination against cycle carriage on trains eg groups working on accessibility issues for eg elderly and disabled rail users; organisations campaigning for integrated quality public transport; other environmental groups seeking better transport solutions; having conversations with both government and opposition politicians who would support such objectives, whilst not endorsing their political platforms, in order to ensure effective parliamentary debate.
5. Are they prepared to mount a campaign which makes effective use of mainstream media, but also social media and other types of internet communication.
6. Are they prepared to be accountable for how such a campaign is run, and held accountable for whether it achieves it's objectives.

I want Cycling UK to answer these questions without delay or prevarication.

[Vorpal]

I want Cycling UK to answer these questions without delay or prevarication.

Then you probably need to contact the national office. Posting on this forum is not a means of communication with the national office, although it is possible that Cycling UK staff would read this, it is not likely to produce answers without delay or prevarication.

[atoz]

I want Cycling UK to answer these questions without delay or prevarication.

Then you probably need to contact the national office. Posting on this forum is not a means of communication with the national office, although it is possible that Cycling UK staff would read this, it is not likely to produce answers without delay or prevarication.

Based on evidence of the way this organisation conducts itself, eg at AGMs, I don't have too much faith in "official channels". The very fact that I had to raise this issue on the forum is an indication of what's wrong. We know that the issue of cycle carriage on trains has been a problem for years, and it's getting worse. That suggests to me that the tactics of the organisation aren't working well enough, or at all. It's a cultural issue of Cycling UK- they seem to have an aversion to certain types of campaigns. All a bit prim and proper and middle class- a bit like the (unlamented) NCU, perhaps.

Putting the issue on the forum publicises it to a wider base, and hopefully will encourage Cycling UK to enter the 21st century. I look forward to a nice snazzy Youtube video- lol. After all, if the Labour Party can reinvent itself, I'm sure a cycling organisation can manage it.

[pjclinch]

I think a "why isn't here a train?" campaign is more apposite at the moment, especially if you're "served" by Northern Rail...

[thirdcrank]

I think a "why isn't here a train?" campaign is more apposite at the moment, especially if you're "served" by Northern Rail...

I presume that's "why isn't there a train?"

Here's news of a recent successful campaign about unsuitable trains

TransPennine Express drops wheelchair-inaccessible trains

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-44418231

[reohn2]

I think a "why isn't here a train?" campaign is more apposite at the moment, especially if you're "served" by Northern Rail...

Quite!
The Lake district is practically cut off to rail travellers????????
Not to mention the cross Pennines service or lack of it

[horizon]

I think a "why isn't here a train?" campaign is more apposite at the moment, especially if you're "served" by Northern Rail...

I presume that's "why isn't there a train?"

Here's news of a recent successful campaign about unsuitable trains

TransPennine Express drops wheelchair-inaccessible trains

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-44418231

Might be case of be careful what you wish for. The Getty image that the BBC lazily stuck on its webpage isn't a Class III at all. These carriages are the best in the stock. What they lack is automatic doors but the doors they do have are easily wide enough for a wheelchair - you just need the guard or another passenger to open and shut the door - it is what happens all the time on GWR.

Inside the train, a few seats removed would have given all the space needed for both wheelchairs and bikes (I presume the bike compartment wasn't in one of the four carriages chosen). They might not yet have had wheelchair accessible toilets but I somehow doubt it. GWR have successfuly converted their Class IIIs and maybe TP could have learnt from that.

[reohn2]

I think a "why isn't here a train?" campaign is more apposite at the moment, especially if you're "served" by Northern Rail...

I presume that's "why isn't there a train?"

Here's news of a recent successful campaign about unsuitable trains

TransPennine Express drops wheelchair-inaccessible trains

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-44418231

Might be case of be careful what you wish for. The Getty image that the BBC lazily stuck on its webpage isn't a Class III at all. These carriages are the best in the stock. What they lack is automatic doors but the doors they do have are easily wide enough for a wheelchair - you just need the guard or another passenger to open and shut the door - it is what happens all the time on GWR.

Inside the train, a few seats removed would have given all the space needed for both wheelchairs and bikes (I presume the bike compartment wasn't in one of the four carriages chosen). They might not yet have had wheelchair accessible toilets but I somehow doubt it. GWR have successfuly converted their Class IIIs and maybe TP could have learnt from that.

Because train companies are primarily in it for profit and not providing a service to the public,all they want is the maximum number of paying fares on any given train,as a result disabled people and other "oddities misfits and minorities" are thought of last in their overall scheme of things.
It's why public transport is in the shambles it is presently and why the roads are chocablock.

It seems to me that the present and previous governments don't/didn't understand the word "service" or "strategy" with regard to transport policy!

[horizon]

Because train companies are primarily in it for profit and not providing a service to the public,all they want is the maximum number of paying fares on any given train,as a result disabled people and other "oddities misfits and minorities" are thought of last in their overall scheme of things.

Beautifully put if I may say so.