Suitable speed limit for minor country roads

[Steady rider]

A local road near me, which is a cycle route carries 1195 vehicles per day. The average speed was 39.5mph and the 85th percentile recorded at 47.2mph. The number of two wheelers was averaging 49 per day.

The road is about 6m wide, without a dotted line or side markings, no long straight stretches, bends. Verges are in parts unsuitable for walking on - slight banking. It is also used by walkers on a 35 mile route.

In the above circumstances can any point to specific guidance to say what the suitable speed limit should be?

[Cugel]

A local road near me, which is a cycle route carries 1195 vehicles per day. The average speed was 39.5mph and the 85th percentile recorded at 47.2mph. The number of two wheelers was averaging 49 per day.

The road is about 6m wide, without a dotted line or side markings, no long straight stretches, bends. Verges are in parts unsuitable for walking on - slight banking. It is also used by walkers on a 35 mile route.

In the above circumstances can any point to specific guidance to say what the suitable speed limit should be?

Typically such roads are subject to "the national speed limit" i.e. 60mph, which is crazy. There are various bits of advice about how drivers should suit their speed to conditions but in practice few drive at a speed inside their reasonable risk envelope. I cycle a lot of such lanes and often see near head-ons between cars, with plenty of evidence of actual head-ons in the form of plastic bits from smashed lights littering the road.

Apparently the death and injury rates on such roads are greater than the rates on A-roads and motorways. They are dangerous for those cyclists lacking the 6th sense, which detects approaching danger in the form of certain qualities of engine noise and similar Toad-sign.

One technique if you're on such a road is to ride on the correct side for seeing as far ahead 'round the bend as you can. This means riding on the right of the 6ft strip if there's a slow bend to the left. You'll see significantly farther; and the 4-wheel drive loon hammering along the other way will see you sooner (if he's bothering to look).

On the tighter bends, gaan canny man! Even other cyclists can be a danger, such as the four stopped 3 yards around a 90 degree bend clasped by high hedges, spread across the road looking at a gizmo-map. Happily the club run was not hammering around that particular bend......

Personally I'd make all such roads 30mph limit (at most) and festoon them with speed cameras. Personally I drive down such roads at 20-30mph at most, despite the Toad on my rear bumper. I find I care not about his mission, whatever it is.

Meanwhile, practice cycling through gaps only 1cm wider than your handlebars and/or knees. And verge-hopping.

Cugel

[Richard Fairhurst]

Since 2013, guidance has been that 40mph limits should be considered for such roads. From https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... eed-limits :

We would welcome applications for zonal rural speed limits, usually 40
mph zones, for example in national parks or AONBs or on other networks
of minor rural roads where speeds are already in line with such a limit.
Such zones would include entry treatment and painted repeater roundels.
The Department is keen to consider the effectiveness of such zones in
reducing speeds and signing requirements.

The national speed limit of 60 mph is only appropriate for the best
quality C and Unclassified roads with a mixed (i.e. partial traffic
flow) function with few bends, junctions or accesses. In the longer
term, these roads should be assessed against through-traffic
criteria. For lower quality C and Unclassified roads with a mixed
function and high numbers of bends, junctions or accesses 50 mph
may be appropriate.

A speed limit of 40 mph may be considered for roads with a
predominantly local, access or recreational function, for example in
national parks or areas of outstanding natural beauty (AONB), or
across, or adjacent to, unenclosed common land; or if they form
part of a recommended route for vulnerable road users. It may also
be appropriate if there is a particular collision problem.

Unfortunately, this has hardly been taken up, and most such roads remain NSL (i.e. 60mph).

Given the walking and cycling routes you mention, I think you'd have a case to petition for a 40mph limit. Personally I think 40mph should become the default for all rural roads without a centreline (unless signed lower) but I don't see anyone campaigning for it, sadly.

[Bmblbzzz]

Typically such roads are subject to "the national speed limit" i.e. 60mph, which is crazy. There are various bits of advice about how drivers should suit their speed to conditions but in practice few drive at a speed inside their reasonable risk envelope. I cycle a lot of such lanes and often see near head-ons between cars, with plenty of evidence of actual head-ons in the form of plastic bits from smashed lights littering the road.

Apparently the death and injury rates on such roads are greater than the rates on A-roads and motorways. They are dangerous for those cyclists lacking the 6th sense, which detects approaching danger in the form of certain qualities of engine noise and similar Toad-sign.

Just picking up on this point. The actual crash rate can be a lot higher than recorded, as many of those crashes which you see the remains of are single-vehicle crashes; people losing control of their vehicle and ending up in hedges, ditches and so on. These, by their nature, are often not recorded.

[thirdcrank]

I don't see a 40mph limit on the type of roads being discussed here as any use at all. It implies a closing speed between motor vehicles of 80mph on roads where forward view is often a matter of only a few yards. While some drivers will bash on at any speed they can manage, not all do so by any means. It seems widely agreed that many drivers see speed limits as a target, I'm not sure that they all aim for 60mph on narrow rural roads but I fear that lower limits may have this effect. I'm basing some of this argument on the fact that around here we have some fairly rural roads with street lighting which were for many years were "derestricted" ie national speed limit repeaters on lamp posts. In a half-hearted concession to those lobbying for lower speed limits, some have been made subject to speed orders at 50mph. I don't know if this is because the 50 is displayed, but my impression - and nothing more - is that typical speeds have increased. It's only quite recently that 30 mph speed limits have been possible with 30mph repeaters in the absence of street lighting. I can think of many villages which now "benefit" from a signed 30 mph limit which is much too high.

I don't really have a practical alternative in the current situation but let's remember that few of these limits on minor roads will be enforced. The specialist investigation of a fatal crash will belatedly give a good idea of the speed of the vehicles involved and it will often be possible to go on to calculate stopping distances and sightlines. I could imagine a situation where a driver doing "only" say 35 miles an hour but much too fast in the circumstances would argue that they were within the posted limit. I do know that that can happen with the national limits, but they are blanket limits, rather than specific to the location. If we are going to have speed limits on narrow, winding rural roads, they need to be set much, much lower than 40mph. IIRC, a proposal for 20 mph was summarily dismissed because there was no way of identifying suitable roads. I'd start by looking at lane widths and making specifications. Then if a road was only wide enough for a single lane, with no contrived centre white line to get round the regs., it should automatically be restricted to 20mph.

This is an example where the road narrows to a single lane and 20mph - traffic possibly meeting at 40mph - is IMO an absolute max.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.76208 ... 312!8i6656
Go forward a bit and it's posted 30mph through the village
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.76224 ... 312!8i6656
Incidentally, the z bend warning sign refers in part to this blind corner:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.76228 ... 312!8i6656

FWIW, In the present climate I see little prospect of effective change, but if we are going to campaign, let's press for something radical.

[Steady rider]

Traffic speeds is a tricky issue, http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov. ... 504682.pdf
For a national policy I think 50 mph as the default limit unless signed otherwise could be considered. Roads without centre lines could be 40 mph. This could result in most minor roads having a 40 mph limit, unless gain signed otherwise. Still too high for many road situations but the general message would be once leaving major roads probably with a 60 mph limit - the 50 limit would apply and 40 if no centre line is marked or can be seen (snow conditions), unless signed otherwise (USO).

The average speed was 39.5mph and the 85th percentile recorded at 47.2mph.

Most higher authorities will I assume have or can obtain such information. I expect if the figures are far apart, 47.5/39.5 it would indicate a minority of drivers going well above the normal speed, ratio 1.2 -

https://www.random-science-tools.com/ph ... stance.htm
40 mph 36m
50 mph 53m
60 mph 73m
at 39.5mph if two vehicles approaching total stopping distance about 72m, if both doing 50 mph, stopping distance about 106m. So drivers going too fast say at 50 mph would need an extra 30+m to stop compared with two drivers at 40 mph.

[pwa]

Surely any road too narrow to have a central marking could have a limit of 30. That is about the max I do on such roads in the car, even with a good view far ahead. Exceptional roads where it is safe to go faster could be given a specific speed limit. I've never understood the National Speed Limit thing being applied to minor roads as a default when most require a much lower speed.

[Mick F]

Who's going to enforce this?
We have narrow lanes in abundance here in the Far Flung South West, and there's roads like them in most parts of this fair UK of ours.

Lanes only a mile from here as I type are 60mph limits with no streetlights and very few houses and definitely no pavements!
60mph can be done, but it's suicidal. Blind corners, narrow bits, no white lines, passing places, high banks.

Make them all 30mph or 20mph limits. Ok, I'll buy that, but who will enforce them?
No-one at all, that's who.

[Steady rider]

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.00344 ... 6656?hl=en

It depends on circumstances they would say. The link shows a road without a centre line, currently 60 mph limit, the average speed if probably 45/55 for the 85% aspect. Having the national default limit at 50 mph seems feasible, trying to have a 40 mph limit for general minor roads would have issues. A 50 limit may work and sign other limits as needed. Enforcement aspects is a another question

[Bmblbzzz]

There is virtually no enforcement of any speed limits except on some motorways where there are cameras.

[Mick F]

Exactly.
People drive how they want to drive, and by far the most are sensible and considerate.

We had a fatality up the road a week or so ago. 30mph limit.
Goodness knows what happened and why, but what hope has anyone got for making and enforcing blanket speed limits?

[thirdcrank]

Above all, this is about people driving to fast to be able to stop in the distance they can see to be clear. The growing frequency of traffic makes it increasingly likely that there will be something coming the other way at a blind corner. This isn't simply a matter of 24 hour traffic counts but the peaks associated with increasing numbers of people commuting from rural areas, often covering quite big distances. They "know" there's nothing out of sight because there often isn't.

I cannot see how a scale of speed limits, especially if rarely enforced, would have much effect here.

Unfortunately, we are relying on drivers' judgment. Not ideal by any means but people need to be educated that they cannot see round corners.

[pwa]

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4296746 ... 6?hl=en-GB

This lane near my home is National Speed Limit, but I walk and cycle it frequently and in twenty years of living here I don't think I've seen one car doing anything like 60. A car doing 40 stands out as being fast. 30 is closer to the norm, and less when passing pedestrians and cyclists. If the National Speed Limit for this sort of road were, say, 30, it would at least let people know what is considered acceptable (conditions permitting) and lower some people's expectations of what they should be able to do. It would do no harm and might do some good. But as I say, speed isn't a huge problem on that road.

[Cyril Haearn]

Maybe the title could be changed
I suggest using "maximum speed limit"

[pete75]

Thousands of miles of country roads here in Lincolnshire. Theoretically almost all subject to the 60mph limit but in practice there is no speed limit at all as there is a complete lack of enforcement. Put the limit down to 50, 40, 30 the roads would still, in reality, have no limit.