Swapping penalty points

Vorpal
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Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby Vorpal » 22 Jun 2018, 8:31am

landsurfer wrote:
Barks wrote:And ban everyone who exceeds 12 points - stop giving any consideration for hardship, if these people genuinely would be inconveniced then they can simply drucpve properly.


Until it's you of course, then it's different ...

If I made mistakes sufficient to get me banned, then I should be banned. I could have accumulated the equivalent of 12 points when I was a teenager. I was, frankly, a thoughtless **** when I was 18 years old. I'm lucky I never killed myself or anyone else. Happily, I survived and learned better.

Now, I can't imagine doing something that would get me banned. I had a couple of incidents in 2003/2004 that were my fault; no points or anything, but I'd like to think that I learned from them, and doing so made me a better driver. Cycling with my children made me a better driver, as well.
“In some ways, it is easier to be a dissident, for then one is without responsibility.”
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pwa
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Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby pwa » 22 Jun 2018, 8:40am

Vorpal wrote:
landsurfer wrote:
Barks wrote:And ban everyone who exceeds 12 points - stop giving any consideration for hardship, if these people genuinely would be inconveniced then they can simply drucpve properly.


Until it's you of course, then it's different ...

If I made mistakes sufficient to get me banned, then I should be banned. I could have accumulated the equivalent of 12 points when I was a teenager. I was, frankly, a thoughtless **** when I was 18 years old. I'm lucky I never killed myself or anyone else. Happily, I survived and learned better.

I went through a similar phase in my youth.

chris_suffolk
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Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby chris_suffolk » 22 Jun 2018, 8:43am

pwa wrote:
Barks wrote:And has 10 times the opportunity to inflict serious damage to other road users due to their lack of consideration for others.


But a driver with 3 points cannot criticise a driver with 9 points who drives three times as far (possibly in their job) because they are both driving to the same standard.


How do you come up with that logic? One has 3 points, one has 9. One drives 3 times as far as the other. Unless you can PROVE a cause and effect then it just means one driver has 3 points, the other 9, and one drives 3 times as far. It doesn't even mean they are a worse driver (though the likelihood is that they), it just means that they were caught 3 times as often (which given policing today is a feat in itself, and something that bad drivers rely on I suspect)

So, please, explain your logic before drawing a conclusion like this

Barks
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Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby Barks » 22 Jun 2018, 8:49am

landsurfer wrote:
Barks wrote:
And ban everyone who exceeds 12 points - stop giving any consideration for hardship, if these people genuinely would be inconveniced then they can simply drive properly.


Until it's you of course, then it's different ...


I have twice received three points on my licence, both through not seeing signage indicating a change to 30mph from National Speed limit - the speeds recorded were 35 and 36 which demonstres I had already assessed 60mph as unreasonable on that section of road. For whatevever reason I missed the signage (distraction, innattention, possibly the sign was slightly obscured in some way) it was not due to a complete disregard of the law and I accepted the points and fines as a good lesson. There were 8 years between each and on each occasion it reinforced attempts to drive to better standards. In my post I was not attempting to be ‘holier than thou’simply that by the time you have 9 points within the period surely a modification of behaviour is called for. Unfortunately, it appears that it is quite commonplace to carry on regardless and find some other way of wriggling away from the consequences. As others have mentioned, disregard of basic laws, conventions and consideration for others is the underlying concern.

thirdcrank
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Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby thirdcrank » 22 Jun 2018, 8:52am

A couple of points :oops: from gaz's more detailed link:

It's reported that some drivers take somebody else's points because they are, themselves, already disqualified. As it's not just the points but all the consequences of conviction they are accepting, falsely admitting driving whilst disqualified seems strange to me.

Then, in some cases somebody has copped for the conviction because they couldn't remember who was driving, which is potentially a defence to the charge of not providing the ID of the driver.

thelawnet
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Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby thelawnet » 22 Jun 2018, 8:56am

thirdcrank wrote:It's clearly not peer-reviewed academic research, but unless this is to be dismissed outright as a publicity stunt - and one which might backfire - then I still find it disturbing. It's hard to see that insurance companies have an interest in normalising lawbreaking.


I imagine that they have a marketing department and this falls under the budget of marketing. They get some column inches and sell a bit more insurance, probably nobody who cares about safety, insurance, risk, underwriting, etc., is involved at any stage of the process.

A previous poll claimed just 1%. http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/ne ... pping.html (although this I think is also not a representative sample, but some kind of monthly panel)

This current poll is obvious nonsense.

I would start with these stats:

https://www.licencebureau.co.uk/dvla-dr ... i-request/

Around 0.17% of drivers have 9-11 points, 1.1% have 5-8 points, 5.2% have 1-4, and 93.8% have no points at all.

The candidates for point-swapping would be new drivers on 1-4 points. those on 9-11, and of those the proportion willing to pervert the course of justice. Possibly some professional drivers also who may have specific restrictions.

This is not going to amount to total anywhere near 20%, as you need the intersection of people willing to commit a serious criminal offence AND those who are in a situation where the points would be worth swapping.

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Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby pwa » 22 Jun 2018, 9:26am

chris_suffolk wrote:
pwa wrote:
Barks wrote:And has 10 times the opportunity to inflict serious damage to other road users due to their lack of consideration for others.


But a driver with 3 points cannot criticise a driver with 9 points who drives three times as far (possibly in their job) because they are both driving to the same standard.


How do you come up with that logic? One has 3 points, one has 9. One drives 3 times as far as the other. Unless you can PROVE a cause and effect then it just means one driver has 3 points, the other 9, and one drives 3 times as far. It doesn't even mean they are a worse driver (though the likelihood is that they), it just means that they were caught 3 times as often (which given policing today is a feat in itself, and something that bad drivers rely on I suspect)

So, please, explain your logic before drawing a conclusion like this


Well to put it another way, if the number of points on your licence is a guide to the standard of driving, you would expect a sample 100 drivers with 3 points, who each do 10,000 miles a year, to be driving at the same standard as 100 drivers with 9 points who each do 30,000 miles a year. They are picking up the same points per mile. Points are of course a very crude indicator of driving standard.

pwa
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Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby pwa » 22 Jun 2018, 9:33am

The fact that couples decide between themselves who will take the points seems to me to be so obvious as not to be worth saying. A letter plops on the floor in the hall, a declaration of guilt is required and the choice of who assumes the blame is made in a living room with no proof required. Has anyone ever really expected that to produce a reliably honest response?

firedfromthecircus
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Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby firedfromthecircus » 22 Jun 2018, 9:35am

But if you drive a million miles in a safe, considerate and law abiding manor then you will receive no points. So anyone who has points has fallen short of that standard, regardless of how many miles they have driven. Therefore, more points means you have been caught falling below the required standard more often or more seriously, i.e. a worse driver!

Regarding the people who agree to take points. I would not be at all surprised if many of them are the wives of aggressive, overbearing husbands who see taking the points as the lesser of two evils. :cry:

pwa
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Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby pwa » 22 Jun 2018, 9:54am

firedfromthecircus wrote:But if you drive a million miles in a safe, considerate and law abiding manor then you will receive no points. So anyone who has points has fallen short of that standard, regardless of how many miles they have driven. Therefore, more points means you have been caught falling below the required standard more often or more seriously, i.e. a worse driver!

Regarding the people who agree to take points. I would not be at all surprised if many of them are the wives of aggressive, overbearing husbands who see taking the points as the lesser of two evils. :cry:


if you drive at all, and you are human, you risk being caught doing something wrong. If you are trying to stick to the rules the risk will be small. But there will still be some risk. Every time you fail to notice a speed limit change you are at risk of breaking a rule. If you are on the ball that won't be very often, but it will happen. So the risk of breaking the rules is determined by your own driving standard, which gives you a risk per mile, and the number of miles you do.

Nobody in the history of mankind has driven a thousand miles without contravening some rule in a small way through momentary lack of attention. The perfect driver is a myth.

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Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby mjr » 22 Jun 2018, 11:57am

firedfromthecircus wrote:Regarding the people who agree to take points. I would not be at all surprised if many of them are the wives of aggressive, overbearing husbands who see taking the points as the lesser of two evils. :cry:

I would not be surprised if a smaller number are people who don't want to risk their partner being unable to drive the school run plus commute.

pwa wrote:if you drive at all, and you are human, you risk being caught doing something wrong. If you are trying to stick to the rules the risk will be small. But there will still be some risk. Every time you fail to notice a speed limit change you are at risk of breaking a rule. If you are on the ball that won't be very often, but it will happen. [...]

If you're failing to notice speed limit changes often enough and misjudging appropriate speeds badly enough to accumulate 12 points, then sorry but you shouldn't be driving because you're a danger to everyone.

The perfect driver may be a myth, but so is implying that everyone is at risk of a points-based disqualification and I think it's sad that someone repeatedly posts such defences of speeding on a cycling forum.
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firedfromthecircus
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Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby firedfromthecircus » 22 Jun 2018, 12:08pm

Perfect driver, no, of course not. As you say, we are all human. But how many of the points given out do you think are given to safe, considerate, law abiding drivers who have had a momentary slip? I would reckon a very small percentage. Most points will be given to drivers who routinely break the law and are too stupid to not get caught. There are also many drivers who routinely break the law but are clever enough to not get caught, most of the time. Sometimes they slip up too!
So I just don't buy the points:miles driven argument. It's points:driving standards regardless of miles driven.

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Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby pwa » 22 Jun 2018, 12:23pm

mjr wrote:
firedfromthecircus wrote:Regarding the people who agree to take points. I would not be at all surprised if many of them are the wives of aggressive, overbearing husbands who see taking the points as the lesser of two evils. :cry:

I would not be surprised if a smaller number are people who don't want to risk their partner being unable to drive the school run plus commute.

pwa wrote:if you drive at all, and you are human, you risk being caught doing something wrong. If you are trying to stick to the rules the risk will be small. But there will still be some risk. Every time you fail to notice a speed limit change you are at risk of breaking a rule. If you are on the ball that won't be very often, but it will happen. [...]

If you're failing to notice speed limit changes often enough and misjudging appropriate speeds badly enough to accumulate 12 points, then sorry but you shouldn't be driving because you're a danger to everyone.

The perfect driver may be a myth, but so is implying that everyone is at risk of a points-based disqualification and I think it's sad that someone repeatedly posts such defences of speeding on a cycling forum.


To accumulate 12 points is a lot, agreed. But I've not defended that. I'm just pointing out that two drivers at the same standard will accumulate at different rates if their mileage is very different. Isn't that obvious? What I find distasteful is people who drive but pretend they never do anything wrong when they do.

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Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby mjr » 22 Jun 2018, 1:00pm

pwa wrote:To accumulate 12 points is a lot, agreed. But I've not defended that. I'm just pointing out that two drivers at the same standard will accumulate at different rates if their mileage is very different. Isn't that obvious?

Obvious, simple and wrong, probably. The driver who drives more should become more expert at it, and more likely to use devices that inform them of speed limit changes.

pwa wrote:What I find distasteful is people who drive but pretend they never do anything wrong when they do.

There's a difference between pretending one never does anything wrong and refusing to accept someone's oft-stated view that accumulating points at a reliably-measurable rate is inevitable.
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Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby Bonefishblues » 22 Jun 2018, 2:23pm

I missed a speed limit change in a variable speed limit area of the M42 a couple of weeks ago. I have no defence, but I do have an explanation:

I was in L2, with a foreign reg LHD artic alongside in L1 matching my speed, indicating his intention to move to my lane. A Rover 25 with a blue bonnet and silver wings to my right rear corner, certainly too close to move right into L3, and another car very close behind me, but nothing ahead, mercifully. I was more intent on accident avoidance than noticing that the limit had stepped down by 10 mph. I was just below the last indicated speed limit. I haven't received any NIP as yet, so I may have been lucky.

You may gather that I have a detailed recollection of the incident and that I have replayed it many times in my head to wonder how I could have managed it better. Any thoughts?