Swapping penalty points

Barks
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Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby Barks » 2 Jan 2019, 7:51pm

Check the mobile phone data, it will have listed the usage of various apps at the time - are our investigators that useless?

Bonefishblues
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Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby Bonefishblues » 2 Jan 2019, 7:59pm

Barks wrote:Check the mobile phone data, it will have listed the usage of various apps at the time - are our investigators that useless?

Perhaps that is exactly what happened and it was shown that Mr Carr's account was exactly what happened?

A very dangerous game being caught perjuring oneself in court, hardly worth the risk of doing time if one could in any event afford a driver if a short ban was applied.

I am reminded also that two way radio tech appears to be legal in cars, it's what Top Gear used to use. The law's shot through with anomalies, but them's the rules.

thirdcrank
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Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby thirdcrank » 2 Jan 2019, 8:17pm

I don't think this is a case where it was suggested that the defendant was using a phone for some other reason, but rather that the prosecution had not proved that the object he was holding was a mobile phone.

Some stuff here on the wider subject from the CPS

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/r ... ile-phones

Reading that, I don't think it's a defence to say that the mobile phone was being used for some other purpose.

Bonefishblues
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Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby Bonefishblues » 2 Jan 2019, 8:50pm

thirdcrank wrote:I don't think this is a case where it was suggested that the defendant was using a phone for some other reason, but rather that the prosecution had not proved that the object he was holding was a mobile phone.

Some stuff here on the wider subject from the CPS

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/r ... ile-phones

Reading that, I don't think it's a defence to say that the mobile phone was being used for some other purpose.

Phone and app records would show it wasn't being used at the time alleged. From mobile network experience, data is readily shared/available, although I'm unsure if gdpr will have had any significant impact on the willingness of the networks to share data. Likely not given its legitimate purpose.

thirdcrank
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Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby thirdcrank » 2 Jan 2019, 9:05pm

I presume that to obtain phone data, you first need details of the phone you are interested in. If you have those details, then you know if it's a phone or not. If you haven't those details, I cannot see an obvious way to obtain them.

Bonefishblues
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Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby Bonefishblues » 2 Jan 2019, 9:43pm

I am talking about the defendant in this case as I assume the police hadn't felt the need to obtain it, hence the challenge.

thirdcrank
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Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby thirdcrank » 2 Jan 2019, 10:03pm

I presume a police officer saw the defendant holding (ie not handsfree) something that they assumed was a mobile phone and may well have been one. Still presuming, when they gave evidence, they were perhaps asked if they were sure it was a mobile phone. Um, er..... Enough of a reasonable doubt to make a successful submission of "no case to answer."

Now, had that officer examined the object being held they could have been sure what it was and they would have had no need to have the data analysed to see if a call was being made because AIUI from my CPS link, it's unnecessary ie the offence is complete by the use of the phone, not necessarily for phoning.

FWIW, I saw an edition of Have I got news for you when this defendant was a panel member. He was asked about this and skated round the point. I see there are several whole HIGNIFY editions on youtube so if anybody has time, they can plough through looking for this.

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Cunobelin
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Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby Cunobelin » 3 Jan 2019, 6:09am

thirdcrank wrote:
Barks wrote:So using a handheld mobile phone to dictate a joke is somehow different to using a handheld mobile phone to make a call - what a joke. Suspend the judge, it is clearly the same offence. ...


It depends on what the defendant is charged with. If the charge says using a mobile phone, then that's what has to be proved. Also, I'm not sure that this bit is strictly accurate:

Comedian, Carr, also used the services of Mr Freeman when he was caught using his mobile phone.

The lawyer convinced magistrates that his client had not been using his phone to make a call but to dictate a joke.


IIRC, the defence submitted that the prosecution had not proved that the device being used was a phone - suggesting that it might have been something else - and so a submission of "no case to answer" was successful. ie Case dismissed without defence having to bat, so to speak.



If you have a hands free system, then it would be no different from making a hands free call, but not the same as using the phone in your hand

brynpoeth
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Re: MPs swapping penalty points: Labour

Postby brynpoeth » 29 Jan 2019, 5:38pm

brynpoeth wrote:Fiona Onasunya, Laber MP has just been convicted of swapping points, or trying to
She and her brother can expect a spell at Her Majestys Pleasure
Do only liberal and laber members do this, are the tories clean?

They have been sentenced to three and ten months respectively

She ruined her life in a moment of madness
Entertainer, juvenile, curmudgeon
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
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reohn2
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Re: MPs swapping penalty points: Labour

Postby reohn2 » 29 Jan 2019, 5:45pm

brynpoeth wrote: ........She ruined her life in a moment of madness

There's a lot of it about,or perhaps not.There are quite few drivers who've killed people with their car and got less
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

Oldjohnw
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Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby Oldjohnw » 29 Jan 2019, 5:50pm

There's a lot of it about,or perhaps not.There are quite few drivers who've killed people with their car and got less


Of course, probably every death on the road is caused by a motor vehicle. Few of them will have deliberately driven at someone. For most it will have been a moment's carelessness: there but for grace of God go I. Others will have broken every rule in the book.
John

Cycling and recycling

9494arnold
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Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby 9494arnold » 29 Jan 2019, 6:39pm

Zero points but 2 Driver Awareness courses under my belt in last 8 years. 33 in a 30. Twice
Police trained driver (just saying , No Excuse) . Father into hospital by ambulance on second occasion.
(I don't nessescarily agree with Negotiated Justice in a Due Process Criminal Justice Regime )'
Retired Police Officer I think you'd be horrified if you knew how many disqualified / uninsured drivers there are running around.
Road Policing (in fact Policing) shrinking by the day.
At least the message is getting out, Mrs Huhne and a Politician a few days ago getting Prison, Police a lot more tuned in these days .
Last edited by 9494arnold on 29 Jan 2019, 6:41pm, edited 1 time in total.

brynpoeth
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Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby brynpoeth » 29 Jan 2019, 6:40pm

Horrified but not surprised
Entertainer, juvenile, curmudgeon
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras, we love life

thirdcrank
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Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby thirdcrank » 31 Jan 2019, 2:01pm

I see that somebody has raised this with the attorney general

Fiona Onasanya: Peterborough MP's jail term to be reviewed
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-c ... e-47071120

FWIW, I thought the going rate for MPs convicted of this was 8 months.

Bonefishblues
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Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby Bonefishblues » 31 Jan 2019, 3:01pm

What's the point though? She will never practice again, (one assumes) she'll shortly cease to be an MP. I don't want to pay for the AG's review, nor to keep her inside any longer as the job's been done as far as I am concerned.