Swapping penalty points

User avatar
mjr
Posts: 14027
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 7:06pm
Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
Contact:

Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby mjr » 22 Jun 2018, 5:30pm

Bonefishblues wrote:You may gather that I have a detailed recollection of the incident and that I have replayed it many times in my head to wonder how I could have managed it better. Any thoughts?

Rocket-propelled grenades. But the M42 often makes me wish for them. The driving on there seems awful, with people giving you no room and indicating like you mention. It's one of the biggest incentives for me to use the A46 or A43-A34-A40 instead. :-(
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

User avatar
Cunobelin
Posts: 9534
Joined: 6 Feb 2007, 7:22pm

Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby Cunobelin » 22 Jun 2018, 6:17pm

Once upon a time there was a "road safety advocate" who set up a "Road Safety" organisation called "SafeSpeed"



They had a series of interesting little "ruses" to avoid speeding fines.

The most distasteful was that it is uncommon for the families of the deceased to cancel the licenses, so if you trawled the obituary columns and found someone recently deceased then you could claim they were driving your car. Out of respect for the bereaved the Police were unlikely to investigate! Also with careful choice they recommended choosing single people as there was then no-one to deny

Putting tape on your number plate to alter the numbers and then if caught claim "local kids" did it as a joke


Getting your elderly relatives to retain their licenses to take your points as they didn't drive anyway

Paying students to take your points as. they needed the money and probably didn't drive

Safespeed's view on the disabled was also interesting:

“I can't think of a good reason why a disabled driver is more entitled than anyone else to a town centre parking space. Sometimes the able bodied person might not be able to park at all because the stupid council has designated too many bays for disabled use. Sometimes there might be six disabled bays all empty. Should an able bodied person walk "a long way" because six disabled folk might turn up?

What about equal parking rights for everyone on a first come first served basis?

... I REALLY don't understand disabled driver parking spaces. Why should a disabled driver get special parking privileges? It's a tiny step along the dangerous path of crippling the rest of us down to the same level as someone less fortunate.”

Bonefishblues
Posts: 6864
Joined: 7 Jul 2014, 9:45pm
Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby Bonefishblues » 22 Jun 2018, 6:55pm

Cunobelin wrote:Once upon a time there was a "road safety advocate" who set up a "Road Safety" organisation called "SafeSpeed"



They had a series of interesting little "ruses" to avoid speeding fines.

The most distasteful was that it is uncommon for the families of the deceased to cancel the licenses, so if you trawled the obituary columns and found someone recently deceased then you could claim they were driving your car. Out of respect for the bereaved the Police were unlikely to investigate! Also with careful choice they recommended choosing single people as there was then no-one to deny

Putting tape on your number plate to alter the numbers and then if caught claim "local kids" did it as a joke


Getting your elderly relatives to retain their licenses to take your points as they didn't drive anyway

Paying students to take your points as. they needed the money and probably didn't drive

Safespeed's view on the disabled was also interesting:

“I can't think of a good reason why a disabled driver is more entitled than anyone else to a town centre parking space. Sometimes the able bodied person might not be able to park at all because the stupid council has designated too many bays for disabled use. Sometimes there might be six disabled bays all empty. Should an able bodied person walk "a long way" because six disabled folk might turn up?

What about equal parking rights for everyone on a first come first served basis?

... I REALLY don't understand disabled driver parking spaces. Why should a disabled driver get special parking privileges? It's a tiny step along the dangerous path of crippling the rest of us down to the same level as someone less fortunate.”

That person died over a decade ago. Many items have been removed and disowned.

A better read might find common cause with many of the themes there, such as overall driving standards are woefully poor, and that a sole focus on (low cost) speed enforcement in the name of improving road safety by the DofT was selling UK road users short.

brynpoeth
Posts: 11274
Joined: 30 Nov 2013, 11:26am

Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby brynpoeth » 22 Jun 2018, 8:10pm

pwa wrote:
Vorpal wrote:
landsurfer wrote:
Until it's you of course, then it's different ...

If I made mistakes sufficient to get me banned, then I should be banned. I could have accumulated the equivalent of 12 points when I was a teenager. I was, frankly, a thoughtless **** when I was 18 years old. I'm lucky I never killed myself or anyone else. Happily, I survived and learned better.

I went through a similar phase in my youth.

Most 17 year old, as described by these two fora members themselves, are too immature to drive
The age should be raised to 28
Would "save" plenty of lives, many of them young people who kill themselves
Entertainer, kidult, curmudgeon
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras, we love life

brynpoeth
Posts: 11274
Joined: 30 Nov 2013, 11:26am

Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby brynpoeth » 22 Jun 2018, 8:19pm

pwa wrote:The fact that couples decide between themselves who will take the points seems to me to be so obvious as not to be worth saying. A letter plops on the floor in the hall, a declaration of guilt is required and the choice of who assumes the blame is made in a living room with no proof required. Has anyone ever really expected that to produce a reliably honest response?

If it were weeks later one really might not know who had been driving
..
I say, Mr Smith, does your wife have a beard? asked Constable Sargent
Entertainer, kidult, curmudgeon
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras, we love life

Pete Owens
Posts: 1559
Joined: 7 Jul 2008, 12:52am

Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby Pete Owens » 22 Jun 2018, 9:38pm

pwa wrote:The fact that couples decide between themselves who will take the points seems to me to be so obvious as not to be worth saying. A letter plops on the floor in the hall, a declaration of guilt is required and the choice of who assumes the blame is made in a living room with no proof required. Has anyone ever really expected that to produce a reliably honest response?

Perhaps it is time to remind folk of how Vicky Pryce & Chris Huhne occupied themselves during 2013.

Bonefishblues
Posts: 6864
Joined: 7 Jul 2014, 9:45pm
Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby Bonefishblues » 22 Jun 2018, 10:02pm

Pete Owens wrote:
pwa wrote:The fact that couples decide between themselves who will take the points seems to me to be so obvious as not to be worth saying. A letter plops on the floor in the hall, a declaration of guilt is required and the choice of who assumes the blame is made in a living room with no proof required. Has anyone ever really expected that to produce a reliably honest response?

Perhaps it is time to remind folk of how Vicky Pryce & Chris Huhne occupied themselves during 2013.

Is the answer "doing time"?

pwa
Posts: 10450
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby pwa » 22 Jun 2018, 11:49pm

Pete Owens wrote:
pwa wrote:The fact that couples decide between themselves who will take the points seems to me to be so obvious as not to be worth saying. A letter plops on the floor in the hall, a declaration of guilt is required and the choice of who assumes the blame is made in a living room with no proof required. Has anyone ever really expected that to produce a reliably honest response?

Perhaps it is time to remind folk of how Vicky Pryce & Chris Huhne occupied themselves during 2013.

But that required one of them to cough up. It's a deeply flawed system. Any alternative though?

Barks
Posts: 262
Joined: 14 Oct 2016, 5:27pm

Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby Barks » 23 Jun 2018, 1:40am

But that required one of them to cough up. It's a deeply flawed system. Any alternative though?


But the technology is now here that can record which individual is behind the wheel - the mere thought that an individual could actually be held accountable for their actions might just make a significant difference.

Incidentally, I have had three unnerving incidents this week (following driver engine revving with me in primary along a line of parked cars and approaching a car waiting at a Zebra crossing; a late overtake and aborted left hook with an obvious queue of traffic in the side road they want to turn down; and a close pass - white van wing mirror physically brushed my shoulder thankfully at low speed - just before a roundabout) all of whom were very young drivers. All were giving me hand signs that somehow I was the W?n&er. All three were actions that, given evidence being available, could have resulted in points or more serious sanction yet there was no concern at all from them. I was of course the ’problem’.

Back to the point, if people can be held accountable for their actions then I believe more will behave appropriately. The reality is that our politicians are too afraid of losing votes to really make drivers follow the rules and conventions that the politicians have brought into law. Road incidents cause more deaths than terrorist activities yet our own Transport Minister can open a car door onto a passing cyclist and claim he was somehow not at fault. Forgot Heathrow third runway resignations on points of principle, he broke a law put in place by his own Dept. The least he should have done was pay the £1000 fine but of course no way was he going to do that - he got away with it because the cyclist he knocked over had no serous injuries and insufficient awareness of the potential consequences of the incident - a slight difference in timing could have resulted in another unnecessary death.

User avatar
The utility cyclist
Posts: 2479
Joined: 22 Aug 2016, 12:28pm
Location: The first garden city

Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby The utility cyclist » 23 Jun 2018, 4:59am

I remember all my 4 speeding incidents clearly, 3 very unjust, 1 totally bang to rights (which was my first one about 18 months after I started driving), it's more cost and a shed load of effort/time to fight them than to pay the fine and take the points. It never had any impact on my insurance premium AFAICT. Attempting to shovel the points elsewhere, I wasn't even aware that was a thing until my early 30s.

I got my points over a 15 year period in which I drove around 260,000 miles (commuting in/out/around London was the majority), since my last lot of points 11 years ago I've driven about 45,000 miles and zero miles since mid October last year. I took an advanced training course 9-10 years ago run by the local council, it was mostly theoretical with no actual on road instruction but I took the advanced driving test anyway and the police advanced instructor thought I was a ringer and had already done advanced driving before. Being a cyclist certainly makes you think about stuff a lot more than your average motorist who doesn't cycle on the roads/in traffic.
I do think men particularly aren't mature enough in their teens/20s and even into their 30s to be let loose with powerful motors and need more restrictions to stop them from being idiots. Women are less reckless than men by far but IMHO I don't think women are more skillful drivers.

Personally I think we should have GPS controlled speeds with electronic limiters on all motors with them being retrofitted to older vehicles, it seems that the government is more interested in allowing 10" TV screens in the front of vehicles as seen on various electric cars than it is restricting speed/sorting out the chaff so they aren't allowed on the roads in a killing machine.

I also think that drivers should be shown the full horror of what speed does and for all drivers to sit a level of test that is far above what we have now with compulsory classroom training. existing license holders should be retested with immediate effect and with mandatory refresher sessions beforehand (at their expense). Retesting/refresher training every 7 years.
Whilst we're at it restrict all motors to 85mph max and a max accelration of 0-60 in 12 seconds, there's no good reason for any vehicle to be faster and this is in part a reason why people speed, it's simply too easy to go fast.

brynpoeth
Posts: 11274
Joined: 30 Nov 2013, 11:26am

Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby brynpoeth » 23 Jun 2018, 7:43am

85 mph? Has the UK maximum limit been raised when I was not looking?

I am surprised anyone admits to being caught speeding on these fora

I would be too ashamed. Mind, I did not start driving at 17
Entertainer, kidult, curmudgeon
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras, we love life

pwa
Posts: 10450
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby pwa » 23 Jun 2018, 9:54am

The utility cyclist wrote:I remember all my 4 speeding incidents clearly, 3 very unjust, 1 totally bang to rights (which was my first one about 18 months after I started driving), it's more cost and a shed load of effort/time to fight them than to pay the fine and take the points. It never had any impact on my insurance premium AFAICT. Attempting to shovel the points elsewhere, I wasn't even aware that was a thing until my early 30s.

I got my points over a 15 year period in which I drove around 260,000 miles (commuting in/out/around London was the majority), since my last lot of points 11 years ago I've driven about 45,000 miles and zero miles since mid October last year. I took an advanced training course 9-10 years ago run by the local council, it was mostly theoretical with no actual on road instruction but I took the advanced driving test anyway and the police advanced instructor thought I was a ringer and had already done advanced driving before. Being a cyclist certainly makes you think about stuff a lot more than your average motorist who doesn't cycle on the roads/in traffic.
I do think men particularly aren't mature enough in their teens/20s and even into their 30s to be let loose with powerful motors and need more restrictions to stop them from being idiots. Women are less reckless than men by far but IMHO I don't think women are more skillful drivers.

Personally I think we should have GPS controlled speeds with electronic limiters on all motors with them being retrofitted to older vehicles, it seems that the government is more interested in allowing 10" TV screens in the front of vehicles as seen on various electric cars than it is restricting speed/sorting out the chaff so they aren't allowed on the roads in a killing machine.

I also think that drivers should be shown the full horror of what speed does and for all drivers to sit a level of test that is far above what we have now with compulsory classroom training. existing license holders should be retested with immediate effect and with mandatory refresher sessions beforehand (at their expense). Retesting/refresher training every 7 years.
Whilst we're at it restrict all motors to 85mph max and a max accelration of 0-60 in 12 seconds, there's no good reason for any vehicle to be faster and this is in part a reason why people speed, it's simply too easy to go fast.


From time to time you and I rub each other up the wrong way, but I agree with everything you say here.

brynpoeth
Posts: 11274
Joined: 30 Nov 2013, 11:26am

Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby brynpoeth » 23 Jun 2018, 10:00am

Bonefishblues wrote:I missed a speed limit change in a variable speed limit area of the M42 a couple of weeks ago. I have no defence, but I do have an explanation:

I was in L2, with a foreign reg LHD artic alongside in L1 matching my speed, indicating his intention to move to my lane. A Rover 25 with a blue bonnet and silver wings to my right rear corner, certainly too close to move right into L3, and another car very close behind me, but nothing ahead, mercifully. I was more intent on accident avoidance than noticing that the limit had stepped down by 10 mph. I was just below the last indicated speed limit. I haven't received any NIP as yet, so I may have been lucky.

You may gather that I have a detailed recollection of the incident and that I have replayed it many times in my head to wonder how I could have managed it better. Any thoughts?

Drop back, slow down, leave gaps
Do not drive beside another vehicle!

Keep at least 10 mph below the maximum limit
Entertainer, kidult, curmudgeon
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras, we love life

brynpoeth
Posts: 11274
Joined: 30 Nov 2013, 11:26am

Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby brynpoeth » 23 Jun 2018, 10:03am

thelawnet wrote:
thirdcrank wrote:It's clearly not peer-reviewed academic research, but unless this is to be dismissed outright as a publicity stunt - and one which might backfire - then I still find it disturbing. It's hard to see that insurance companies have an interest in normalising lawbreaking.


I imagine that they have a marketing department and this falls under the budget of marketing. They get some column inches and sell a bit more insurance, probably nobody who cares about safety, insurance, risk, underwriting, etc., is involved at any stage of the process.

A previous poll claimed just 1%. http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/ne ... pping.html (although this I think is also not a representative sample, but some kind of monthly panel)

This current poll is obvious nonsense.

I would start with these stats:

https://www.licencebureau.co.uk/dvla-dr ... i-request/

Around 0.17% of drivers have 9-11 points, 1.1% have 5-8 points, 5.2% have 1-4, and 93.8% have no points at all.

..

Can that be right, 93.8% have no points?
My observations prove that 93.8% cannae read STOP signs
Entertainer, kidult, curmudgeon
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras, we love life

pwa
Posts: 10450
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby pwa » 23 Jun 2018, 10:08am

brynpoeth wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:I missed a speed limit change in a variable speed limit area of the M42 a couple of weeks ago. I have no defence, but I do have an explanation:

I was in L2, with a foreign reg LHD artic alongside in L1 matching my speed, indicating his intention to move to my lane. A Rover 25 with a blue bonnet and silver wings to my right rear corner, certainly too close to move right into L3, and another car very close behind me, but nothing ahead, mercifully. I was more intent on accident avoidance than noticing that the limit had stepped down by 10 mph. I was just below the last indicated speed limit. I haven't received any NIP as yet, so I may have been lucky.

You may gather that I have a detailed recollection of the incident and that I have replayed it many times in my head to wonder how I could have managed it better. Any thoughts?

Drop back, slow down, leave gaps
Do not drive beside another vehicle!

Keep at least 10 mph below the maximum limit


Actually I would say that Bonefishblues was focusing on the main safety issue at that moment, the change in speed limit being of secondary importance. If Bonefishblues had registered the limit change in time, simply easing off the accelerator would have been the correct thing to do, and the car behind would just have had to live with it.