Swapping penalty points

Bonefishblues
Posts: 6849
Joined: 7 Jul 2014, 9:45pm
Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby Bonefishblues » 23 Jun 2018, 10:51am

pwa wrote:
brynpoeth wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:I missed a speed limit change in a variable speed limit area of the M42 a couple of weeks ago. I have no defence, but I do have an explanation:

I was in L2, with a foreign reg LHD artic alongside in L1 matching my speed, indicating his intention to move to my lane. A Rover 25 with a blue bonnet and silver wings to my right rear corner, certainly too close to move right into L3, and another car very close behind me, but nothing ahead, mercifully. I was more intent on accident avoidance than noticing that the limit had stepped down by 10 mph. I was just below the last indicated speed limit. I haven't received any NIP as yet, so I may have been lucky.

You may gather that I have a detailed recollection of the incident and that I have replayed it many times in my head to wonder how I could have managed it better. Any thoughts?

Drop back, slow down, leave gaps
Do not drive beside another vehicle!

Keep at least 10 mph below the maximum limit


Actually I would say that Bonefishblues was focusing on the main safety issue at that moment, the change in speed limit being of secondary importance. If Bonefishblues had registered the limit change in time, simply easing off the accelerator would have been the correct thing to do, and the car behind would just have had to live with it.

Indeed. My brain at least has a finite processing capacity and was full of HGV, as it were, as they have something of a reputation for side-swipes. In many respects the best course of action would have been to just accelerate slightly to remove the overlap, but of course I didn't have that option as I was within c2mph or so of what the last gantry had advised :?

Driving at sub 40mph on the M42 at 5.30pm on a weekday (50mph variable limit in force, heavy traffic in all 4 lanes, incl the hard shoulder as a running lane) would be actively dangerous IMHO, BP, but thanks for the advice.

User avatar
661-Pete
Posts: 9183
Joined: 22 Nov 2012, 8:45pm
Location: Sussex

Swapping penalty points

Postby 661-Pete » 23 Jun 2018, 10:56am

Bearing in mind that there is currently a much-hyped sports-fest in progress at the moment, I wonder if some of these motorists are regarding penalty points as trivially as they might regard a penalty shootout?

Regarding the latter, I don't suppose it matters one jot if one footballer takes a penalty-kick which another footballer really ought to have taken (serious devotees of the game may wish to argue the toss with me...). Maybe these errant motorists see penalty points as equally trivial?

The one excuse, which is where the car owner honestly cannot recall who was driving at the time, bears consideration. I recall, some years ago, staying at my sister's for the weekend. At breakfast, there were several letters including one official-looking one which turned out to be - you guessed it! - from Her Majesty's loyal constabulary advising them that a certain speed camera had noted a certain transgression regarding their automobile....

There then ensued a bit of a debate between my sister and B-i-l, trying to recall who'd been driving the car at the time. Out of tact, I tried hard to ignore the conversation, burying myself in a newspaper instead. Eventually my b-i-l decided to take the rap, but I don't think this decision had anything to do with the number of points on each of their licences (I didn't ask!). If they got it wrong, well no serious harm done. I hope!

On the other hand, remember Chris Huhne! Those who deliberately mislead for the purpose of evading the full force of the law, they deserve to have the book thrown at them.... As indeed happened. One career shattered...
Suppose that this room is a lift. The support breaks and down we go with ever-increasing velocity.
Let us pass the time by performing physical experiments...
--- Arthur Eddington (creator of the Eddington Number).

brynpoeth
Posts: 11240
Joined: 30 Nov 2013, 11:26am

Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby brynpoeth » 23 Jun 2018, 11:03am

Bonefishblues wrote:
pwa wrote:
brynpoeth wrote:Drop back, slow down, leave gaps
Do not drive beside another vehicle!

Keep at least 10 mph below the maximum limit


Actually I would say that Bonefishblues was focusing on the main safety issue at that moment, the change in speed limit being of secondary importance. If Bonefishblues had registered the limit change in time, simply easing off the accelerator would have been the correct thing to do, and the car behind would just have had to live with it.

Indeed. My brain at least has a finite processing capacity and was full of HGV, as it were, as they have something of a reputation for side-swipes. In many respects the best course of action would have been to just accelerate slightly to remove the overlap, but of course I didn't have that option as I was within c2mph or so of what the last gantry had advised :?

Driving at sub 40mph on the M42 at 5.30pm on a weekday (50mph variable limit in force, heavy traffic in all 4 lanes, incl the hard shoulder as a running lane) would be actively dangerous IMHO, BP, but thanks for the advice.

What if everybody did it? As third crank likes to ask :wink:
Indeed if enough did it and all went slower it would be much better, just keeping a safe distance from the vehicle in front often means slowing down, +1!

In Germany one is advised to drive "verstetzt", not next to another vehicle. You could have been in his blind spot so it might have been better to change speed

40 mph would be much better than 50
Entertainer, kidult, curmudgeon
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras, we love life

Bonefishblues
Posts: 6849
Joined: 7 Jul 2014, 9:45pm
Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby Bonefishblues » 23 Jun 2018, 11:08am

brynpoeth wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:
pwa wrote:
Actually I would say that Bonefishblues was focusing on the main safety issue at that moment, the change in speed limit being of secondary importance. If Bonefishblues had registered the limit change in time, simply easing off the accelerator would have been the correct thing to do, and the car behind would just have had to live with it.

Indeed. My brain at least has a finite processing capacity and was full of HGV, as it were, as they have something of a reputation for side-swipes. In many respects the best course of action would have been to just accelerate slightly to remove the overlap, but of course I didn't have that option as I was within c2mph or so of what the last gantry had advised :?

Driving at sub 40mph on the M42 at 5.30pm on a weekday (50mph variable limit in force, heavy traffic in all 4 lanes, incl the hard shoulder as a running lane) would be actively dangerous IMHO, BP, but thanks for the advice.

What if everybody did it? As third crank likes to ask :wink:
Indeed if enough did it and all went slower it would be much better, just keeping a safe distance from the vehicle in front often means slowing down, +1!

In Germany one is advised to drive "verstetzt", not next to another vehicle. You could have been in his blind spot so it might have been better to change speed

40 mph would be much better than 50

I have no issue if everyone did it, or was required to do it, but I was driving on the road as it existed, 2 weeks last Monday. Given the congestion, it would have been somewhat challenging not to be driving next to someone, I'm afraid - it just is what it is. I have already said that I had nobody immediately in front of me. No, I wasn't in his blind spot, I could see that because I could see the driver in his offside mirror.

pwa
Posts: 10385
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby pwa » 23 Jun 2018, 11:40am

Bonefishblues wrote:
brynpoeth wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:Indeed. My brain at least has a finite processing capacity and was full of HGV, as it were, as they have something of a reputation for side-swipes. In many respects the best course of action would have been to just accelerate slightly to remove the overlap, but of course I didn't have that option as I was within c2mph or so of what the last gantry had advised :?

Driving at sub 40mph on the M42 at 5.30pm on a weekday (50mph variable limit in force, heavy traffic in all 4 lanes, incl the hard shoulder as a running lane) would be actively dangerous IMHO, BP, but thanks for the advice.

What if everybody did it? As third crank likes to ask :wink:
Indeed if enough did it and all went slower it would be much better, just keeping a safe distance from the vehicle in front often means slowing down, +1!

In Germany one is advised to drive "verstetzt", not next to another vehicle. You could have been in his blind spot so it might have been better to change speed

40 mph would be much better than 50

I have no issue if everyone did it, or was required to do it, but I was driving on the road as it existed, 2 weeks last Monday. Given the congestion, it would have been somewhat challenging not to be driving next to someone, I'm afraid - it just is what it is. I have already said that I had nobody immediately in front of me. No, I wasn't in his blind spot, I could see that because I could see the driver in his offside mirror.

Over 2 weeks ago. I think that probably means you are not going to get the letter. So file away in the list of experiences to learn from, and all is well.

thirdcrank
Posts: 28648
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby thirdcrank » 23 Jun 2018, 11:53am

661-Pete wrote: ... The one excuse, which is where the car owner honestly cannot recall who was driving at the time, bears consideration. I recall, some years ago, staying at my sister's for the weekend. At breakfast, there were several letters including one official-looking one which turned out to be - you guessed it! - from Her Majesty's loyal constabulary advising them that a certain speed camera had noted a certain transgression regarding their automobile....

There then ensued a bit of a debate between my sister and B-i-l, trying to recall who'd been driving the car at the time. Out of tact, I tried hard to ignore the conversation, burying myself in a newspaper instead. Eventually my b-i-l decided to take the rap, but I don't think this decision had anything to do with the number of points on each of their licences (I didn't ask!). If they got it wrong, well no serious harm done. I hope! ...


I believe this isn't an excuse so much as a defence. There was a well-publicised case a few years ago when Neil and Christine Hamilton were cleared in this way. The rather sad thing about fixed penalties is that a lot of people will pay up rather than defend a case, even if they have a defence. On the matter of no harm done, it would be bad news in a case like this if a check of the picture showed it to be a man but a woman copped the points, or vice versa. An understandable attempt to comply might result in a prosecution for perveting the course of justice. OTOH, if somebody dishonestly gave the wrong ID, they might use this line as a defence.

PDQ Mobile
Posts: 2979
Joined: 2 Aug 2015, 4:40pm

Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby PDQ Mobile » 23 Jun 2018, 2:26pm

661-Pete wrote:
On the other hand, remember Chris Huhne! Those who deliberately mislead for the purpose of evading the full force of the law, they deserve to have the book thrown at them.... As indeed happened. One career shattered...


He was as I remember it brought down because he was having an affair and his wife/partner decided to dish the dirt on him.
Bringing the sky down on both of them.
Otherwise nobody would ever have known.

thirdcrank
Posts: 28648
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby thirdcrank » 23 Jun 2018, 3:45pm

PDQ Mobile wrote: ... He was as I remember it brought down because he was having an affair and his wife/partner decided to dish the dirt on him.
Bringing the sky down on both of them.
Otherwise nobody would ever have known.


While it's right that the rest of society might never have known, IIRC, his son was also aware and was caught in the web. I'm not clear what point you are making here: that it's easy to get away with? or something else?

User avatar
Cunobelin
Posts: 9526
Joined: 6 Feb 2007, 7:22pm

Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby Cunobelin » 23 Jun 2018, 3:50pm

Bonefishblues wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:Once upon a time there was a "road safety advocate" who set up a "Road Safety" organisation called "SafeSpeed"



They had a series of interesting little "ruses" to avoid speeding fines.

The most distasteful was that it is uncommon for the families of the deceased to cancel the licenses, so if you trawled the obituary columns and found someone recently deceased then you could claim they were driving your car. Out of respect for the bereaved the Police were unlikely to investigate! Also with careful choice they recommended choosing single people as there was then no-one to deny

Putting tape on your number plate to alter the numbers and then if caught claim "local kids" did it as a joke


Getting your elderly relatives to retain their licenses to take your points as they didn't drive anyway

Paying students to take your points as. they needed the money and probably didn't drive

Safespeed's view on the disabled was also interesting:

“I can't think of a good reason why a disabled driver is more entitled than anyone else to a town centre parking space. Sometimes the able bodied person might not be able to park at all because the stupid council has designated too many bays for disabled use. Sometimes there might be six disabled bays all empty. Should an able bodied person walk "a long way" because six disabled folk might turn up?

What about equal parking rights for everyone on a first come first served basis?

... I REALLY don't understand disabled driver parking spaces. Why should a disabled driver get special parking privileges? It's a tiny step along the dangerous path of crippling the rest of us down to the same level as someone less fortunate.”

That person died over a decade ago. Many items have been removed and disowned.


As made clear by the link, even if the statement that they never advocated breaking the law is entirely untrue


A better read might find common cause with many of the themes there, such as overall driving standards are woefully poor, and that a sole focus on (low cost) speed enforcement in the name of improving road safety by the DofT was selling UK road users short.


Unfortunately far too much of the site is still about dodgy statistics reinforcing the attitude that Speeding restrictions do not apply to the reader

Bonefishblues
Posts: 6849
Joined: 7 Jul 2014, 9:45pm
Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby Bonefishblues » 23 Jun 2018, 4:21pm

Cunobelin wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:
Cunobelin wrote:Once upon a time there was a "road safety advocate" who set up a "Road Safety" organisation called "SafeSpeed"



They had a series of interesting little "ruses" to avoid speeding fines.

The most distasteful was that it is uncommon for the families of the deceased to cancel the licenses, so if you trawled the obituary columns and found someone recently deceased then you could claim they were driving your car. Out of respect for the bereaved the Police were unlikely to investigate! Also with careful choice they recommended choosing single people as there was then no-one to deny

Putting tape on your number plate to alter the numbers and then if caught claim "local kids" did it as a joke


Getting your elderly relatives to retain their licenses to take your points as they didn't drive anyway

Paying students to take your points as. they needed the money and probably didn't drive

Safespeed's view on the disabled was also interesting:


That person died over a decade ago. Many items have been removed and disowned.


As made clear by the link, even if the statement that they never advocated breaking the law is entirely untrue


A better read might find common cause with many of the themes there, such as overall driving standards are woefully poor, and that a sole focus on (low cost) speed enforcement in the name of improving road safety by the DofT was selling UK road users short.


Unfortunately far too much of the site is still about dodgy statistics reinforcing the attitude that Speeding restrictions do not apply to the reader

Fair enough. We read things differently, there are many items which are wholly positive and with which I personally agree. Others will focus on different things. I guess if we enforce speed limits rigidly on our roads all will be well.

User avatar
Cunobelin
Posts: 9526
Joined: 6 Feb 2007, 7:22pm

Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby Cunobelin » 23 Jun 2018, 4:34pm

Without taking this too far off topic...

There is a lot of evidence that clamping down on speeding does address poor driving standards, and identifies risk takers

It always reminds me of Manchester where the Speedophile Utopia of more Police clamping down on poor driving was greeted by the same bleating... just cross out Speed Camera and insert marked Police Vehicle and suddenly these vehicles were killing thousands a year, prosecuting dangerous driving was only financially motivated and all the other untruths and myths that Safespeed and the Speedophile lobby love to perpetuate

brynpoeth
Posts: 11240
Joined: 30 Nov 2013, 11:26am

Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby brynpoeth » 23 Jun 2018, 4:44pm

I like to keep comfortably inside the maximum speed limit
This is fine on the motorway where normal drivers can overtake easily
Entertainer, kidult, curmudgeon
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras, we love life

Bonefishblues
Posts: 6849
Joined: 7 Jul 2014, 9:45pm
Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby Bonefishblues » 23 Jun 2018, 4:49pm

@CB I don't doubt that, but we are becoming (have become) a one-trick pony in terms of road enforcement. Great that it's cheap, can be mechanised to a large extent, and of course the hundreds of thousands of offenders are proof that the roads are being policed (not Policed).

I think that the authorities are getting off scot-free here though, evidenced by how poor standards are becoming. Some of the suggestions on that site have merit, but first one must accept that there can be good amongst bad in order to see them.

User avatar
Cunobelin
Posts: 9526
Joined: 6 Feb 2007, 7:22pm

Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby Cunobelin » 23 Jun 2018, 8:33pm

Bonefishblues wrote:@CB I don't doubt that, but we are becoming (have become) a one-trick pony in terms of road enforcement. Great that it's cheap, can be mechanised to a large extent, and of course the hundreds of thousands of offenders are proof that the roads are being policed (not Policed).

I think that the authorities are getting off scot-free here though, evidenced by how poor standards are becoming. Some of the suggestions on that site have merit, but first one must accept that there can be good amongst bad in order to see them.


I still would not look at the BNP site for advice on Race Relations.

Bonefishblues
Posts: 6849
Joined: 7 Jul 2014, 9:45pm
Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby Bonefishblues » 23 Jun 2018, 8:40pm

Cunobelin wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:@CB I don't doubt that, but we are becoming (have become) a one-trick pony in terms of road enforcement. Great that it's cheap, can be mechanised to a large extent, and of course the hundreds of thousands of offenders are proof that the roads are being policed (not Policed).

I think that the authorities are getting off scot-free here though, evidenced by how poor standards are becoming. Some of the suggestions on that site have merit, but first one must accept that there can be good amongst bad in order to see them.


I still would not look at the BNP site for advice on Race Relations.

OK, point taken, you believe that site's got no validity and must be ignored. I will look more broadly for ideas. Meanwhile the DoT must be p1ssing themselves laughing at how easy they get it. Keep pushing the button marked speeding and watch the happiness spread. Binary life's good because simple.