Swapping penalty points

Cyril Haearn
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Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby Cyril Haearn » 15 Nov 2018, 8:54pm

Of no, the Grauniad reports that a labour whip is under investigation for trying to swap points :(
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Airsporter1st
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Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby Airsporter1st » 15 Nov 2018, 9:20pm

Bonefishblues wrote:I missed a speed limit change in a variable speed limit area of the M42 a couple of weeks ago. I have no defence, but I do have an explanation:

I was in L2, with a foreign reg LHD artic alongside in L1 matching my speed, indicating his intention to move to my lane. A Rover 25 with a blue bonnet and silver wings to my right rear corner, certainly too close to move right into L3, and another car very close behind me, but nothing ahead, mercifully. I was more intent on accident avoidance than noticing that the limit had stepped down by 10 mph. I was just below the last indicated speed limit. I haven't received any NIP as yet, so I may have been lucky.

You may gather that I have a detailed recollection of the incident and that I have replayed it many times in my head to wonder how I could have managed it better. Any thoughts?


Simple, in my view; you should have decelerated/braked lightly and allowed the truck to get ahead and pull in front of you. The guy behind you would undoubtedly have been peed off, but that's his problem for being too close.

The last defensive driving course I attended (a requirement of my job at the time) placed great emphasis on not getting oneself in the position you were in, in the first place.

Airsporter1st
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Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby Airsporter1st » 15 Nov 2018, 9:27pm

The utility cyclist wrote:I remember all my 4 speeding incidents clearly, 3 very unjust, 1 totally bang to rights (which was my first one about 18 months after I started driving), it's more cost and a shed load of effort/time to fight them than to pay the fine and take the points. It never had any impact on my insurance premium AFAICT. Attempting to shovel the points elsewhere, I wasn't even aware that was a thing until my early 30s.

I got my points over a 15 year period in which I drove around 260,000 miles (commuting in/out/around London was the majority), since my last lot of points 11 years ago I've driven about 45,000 miles and zero miles since mid October last year. I took an advanced training course 9-10 years ago run by the local council, it was mostly theoretical with no actual on road instruction but I took the advanced driving test anyway and the police advanced instructor thought I was a ringer and had already done advanced driving before. Being a cyclist certainly makes you think about stuff a lot more than your average motorist who doesn't cycle on the roads/in traffic.
I do think men particularly aren't mature enough in their teens/20s and even into their 30s to be let loose with powerful motors and need more restrictions to stop them from being idiots. Women are less reckless than men by far but IMHO I don't think women are more skillful drivers.

Personally I think we should have GPS controlled speeds with electronic limiters on all motors with them being retrofitted to older vehicles, it seems that the government is more interested in allowing 10" TV screens in the front of vehicles as seen on various electric cars than it is restricting speed/sorting out the chaff so they aren't allowed on the roads in a killing machine.

I also think that drivers should be shown the full horror of what speed does and for all drivers to sit a level of test that is far above what we have now with compulsory classroom training. existing license holders should be retested with immediate effect and with mandatory refresher sessions beforehand (at their expense). Retesting/refresher training every 7 years.
Whilst we're at it restrict all motors to 85mph max and a max accelration of 0-60 in 12 seconds, there's no good reason for any vehicle to be faster and this is in part a reason why people speed, it's simply too easy to go fast.


How would restricting a 'motor' to 85mph prevent someone speeding in a built-up area - or even on a motorway, for that matter :?:

thirdcrank
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Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby thirdcrank » 17 Nov 2018, 7:12pm

The utility cyclist wrote:I remember all my 4 speeding incidents clearly, 3 very unjust, 1 totally bang to rights ....


Apologies for coming back to this but I forgot to ask at the time and it's been quoted by somebody else. Would you like to clarify the bit I've underlined?

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The utility cyclist
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Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby The utility cyclist » 18 Nov 2018, 8:41am

thirdcrank wrote:
The utility cyclist wrote:I remember all my 4 speeding incidents clearly, 3 very unjust, 1 totally bang to rights ....


Apologies for coming back to this but I forgot to ask at the time and it's been quoted by somebody else. Would you like to clarify the bit I've underlined?

1x irregularity non conforming to approved signage/signage layout (incl distances, positioning etc) for temporary speed limit
1x non existant signage/hidden signage from transition from 40 - 30 on same road/same street light distancing etc.
Similar to above with new speed through a 'village' (literally a handful if houses set back from road) lowering from NSL which had been NSL since ever i'd known it and new signage was hidden/v.badly positioned. #moneymaker

Last two were early/mid 90s, former was 2009.

pwa
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Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby pwa » 18 Nov 2018, 8:47am

Signs should be positioned to be seen, and kept clear of overgrown hedges. Our council lets hedges grown over signs, including speed signs. That doesn't help anyone. I like the big painted ones on the road surface. They are difficult or impossible to miss.

thirdcrank
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Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby thirdcrank » 18 Nov 2018, 8:58am

The utility cyclist wrote:... 1x irregularity non conforming to approved signage/signage layout (incl distances, positioning etc) for temporary speed limit
1x non existant signage/hidden signage from transition from 40 - 30 on same road/same street light distancing etc.
Similar to above with new speed through a 'village' (literally a handful if houses set back from road) lowering from NSL which had been NSL since ever i'd known it and new signage was hidden/v.badly positioned. #moneymaker

Last two were early/mid 90s, former was 2009.


Thanks for that. If your experience is typical, it might be that a lot of drivers are being badly treated. Or believe they are.

Bonefishblues
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Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby Bonefishblues » 18 Nov 2018, 9:28am

thirdcrank wrote:
The utility cyclist wrote:... 1x irregularity non conforming to approved signage/signage layout (incl distances, positioning etc) for temporary speed limit
1x non existant signage/hidden signage from transition from 40 - 30 on same road/same street light distancing etc.
Similar to above with new speed through a 'village' (literally a handful if houses set back from road) lowering from NSL which had been NSL since ever i'd known it and new signage was hidden/v.badly positioned. #moneymaker

Last two were early/mid 90s, former was 2009.


Thanks for that. If your experience is typical, it might be that a lot of drivers are being badly treated. Or believe they are.

Those should all have been appealed on that basis. I believe there is a lawyer who specialises in such cases, although his name is rather hard to recall :wink:

thirdcrank
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Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby thirdcrank » 18 Nov 2018, 9:42am

The utility cyclist

Forgot to ask: in your four cases, what were the alleged speeds and posted limits? (Sorry if you have already posted that somewhere above.)

Also, going by the dates, I'm guessing that most of these were not speed camera cases?

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The utility cyclist
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Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby The utility cyclist » 18 Nov 2018, 9:52am

Bonefishblues wrote:
thirdcrank wrote:
The utility cyclist wrote:... 1x irregularity non conforming to approved signage/signage layout (incl distances, positioning etc) for temporary speed limit
1x non existant signage/hidden signage from transition from 40 - 30 on same road/same street light distancing etc.
Similar to above with new speed through a 'village' (literally a handful if houses set back from road) lowering from NSL which had been NSL since ever i'd known it and new signage was hidden/v.badly positioned. #moneymaker

Last two were early/mid 90s, former was 2009.


Thanks for that. If your experience is typical, it might be that a lot of drivers are being badly treated. Or believe they are.

Those should all have been appealed on that basis. I believe there is a lawyer who specialises in such cases, although his name is rather hard to recall :wink:

As I said previously, cost of appealing plus time meant I just didn't bother, the last one really peed me off, it was a almost as if it was set up deliberately so, it wasn't even close to being correct from many aspects. I drove an awful lot for work back then (50% motorway) and to many new places, so many garbage scenarios.


My first and only justified (IMO) I got caught 'sauntering' on a literally empty M18 mid sunday afternoon '93 ish the patrol car officers were very pleasant about matters and obviously recognised I was obeying HC126 'travel at a speed you can stop well within the distance you can see to be clear' :lol: i'm a good boy now, particularly since I gave up driving 13 months back, car is still in garage and at times really needed it so had no options that were feasible and cancelled or just don't do x anymore. For now i'm seeing how long I can sustain it.

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The utility cyclist
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Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby The utility cyclist » 18 Nov 2018, 9:57am

thirdcrank wrote:The utility cyclist

Forgot to ask: in your four cases, what were the alleged speeds and posted limits? (Sorry if you have already posted that somewhere above.)

Also, going by the dates, I'm guessing that most of these were not speed camera cases?

Only first was actual police, too fast on M18 as above -guilty. I only recall the 40-30 and I was done at 37 I think, I was on my way to Cadbury's Watford office, that wasn't a treat!

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Cunobelin
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Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby Cunobelin » 18 Nov 2018, 10:02am

pwa wrote:Signs should be positioned to be seen, and kept clear of overgrown hedges. Our council lets hedges grown over signs, including speed signs. That doesn't help anyone. I like the big painted ones on the road surface. They are difficult or impossible to miss.


Some still do...

Local School, residential area, 30 signs on roads and repeaters. Add the "Speed mats" and it is fairly obvious, yet the average speed is still 40+

Cyril Haearn
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Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby Cyril Haearn » 18 Nov 2018, 5:23pm

I heard of someone who had a serious 'accident' because a stop sign was hidden by vegetation. One wonders if he spotted the junction despite not seeing the sign

Might be that some signs are obscured, but one can set the satnav to beep so it should be possible to avoid going too fast

What is the detection rate? 1:10 000? Some admit to being caught several times, how many offences were undetected?

Never been caught speeding but I did once pay a parking ticket :( issued in Cheltenham c 1990, could see no way to prove I had not committed a parking crime (got the ticket by post some time later)
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pwa
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Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby pwa » 18 Nov 2018, 5:34pm

Cyril Haearn wrote:I heard of someone who had a serious 'accident' because a stop sign was hidden by vegetation. One wonders if he spotted the junction despite not seeing the sign

Might be that some signs are obscured, but one can set the satnav to beep so it should be possible to avoid going too fast

What is the detection rate? 1:10 000? Some admit to being caught several times, how many offences were undetected?

Never been caught speeding but I did once pay a parking ticket :( issued in Cheltenham c 1990, could see no way to prove I had not committed a parking crime (got the ticket by post some time later)

While it is possible for an individual to exceed speed limits many times between detections, a driver around here who routinely ignores speed limits will pick up tickets on a regular basis. If you want to keep your licence it is not sustainable.

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willcee
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Re: Swapping penalty points

Postby willcee » 18 Nov 2018, 7:07pm

interesting contris, I did a rough estimate of what miles i've covered in vehicles within the UK and Continent and its heading for 1.25 m miles, never had any points, albeit oldschool 2 tickets for speeding both into 30's edge of strange towns, one at night where they had changed the sign position, a careless driving 40 years ago, held RAC MSA competition Liscense for 30 years, Advanced test for many years, had one big smack in my 20's, and 3 minors while on the road as a roving senior manager, Motor trade.. driven everything from J4 Vans to Mercs, BM'S R/ Royce & Zuffhausens finest..I would have been regarded as a very fast driver in the right conditions..
My own view is that the more hours you spend driving and more miles covered you are in the firing zone for other careless drivers and hungry camera zones and even hungrier for 'easy meat' police traffic branch..I wouldn't hold with points swopping however i can see how it could assist some couples. will.