Third runway at London-Heathrow?

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mjr
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Re: Third runway at London-Heathrow?

Post by mjr »

I agree with Pete Owens in one way yet again. The climate change / pollution argument should have killed this plan stone dead years ago - but no, we'd rather burn while rich, like the people from Golgafrincham Ark B.

However, it is important to realise that far more people cycle for speed, convenience and health than environmental reasons, so it's hardly surprising that some here are in favour of it. They may even take their bikes on planes, although Heathrow is a pretty rotten one to do it from, with only Terminals 4 and 5 having cycle route links and they're pretty terrible and the roads are even worse, with high speeds, sweeping bends and dodgy lane widths.
Ben@Forest wrote:To be fair links between Gatwick and Heathrow are pretty good, the coach service is every half hour. And there is definitely a similar service to Stansted - don't know about Luton.

The Stansted service used to call at Luton when I last saw it, which was a while ago.

A half-hourly coach service offering just 80 seats and taking 1h30 doesn't seem like a "pretty good" link for just 50km between Gatwick and Heathrow - about 21mph average speed as the crow flies. It's already quicker to use the bloody tube and Gatwick Express, even without paying Heathrow Express's premium prices. A direct rail service even using existing lines (via the West London Line) could be quicker and offer far more seats - and building new lines could make it even quicker, of course. But instead we just keep building Heathrow ever bigger and throwing more land into the fire.
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Ben@Forest
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Re: Third runway at London-Heathrow?

Post by Ben@Forest »

tatanab wrote:
Pete Owens wrote:it is astonishing that even contributors to a cycle forum, who you would imagine had some basic concern for the environment,
That is a mistake that some non cyclists make, assuming that just because i choose to use a pedal cycle I must have green credentials.


David Millar drives a Maserati. I heard him talk at a do late last year, l'm pretty sure he mentioned the environment and cycling no times.
softlips
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Re: Third runway at London-Heathrow?

Post by softlips »

Ben@Forest wrote:
mjr wrote:
irc wrote:So much that on one holiday I had to fly Glasgow - Gatwick -bus transfer- Heathrow - North America. Flying Glasgow - Heathrow that day would have added around £200.

That sounds more like an argument for strengthening links between Heathrow and the other London airports than a third runway.


To be fair links between Gatwick and Heathrow are pretty good, the coach service is every half hour.


Yep, it’s a coach service! I’ve had to use it when there have been issues at LHR and I’ve been moved to LGW. It needs to be a fast train.

I’m flying as little as possible but have still flown 26 times this year on business. Averaged around 150 a year until this year. For business a coach transfer is unacceptable and too slow.
Pete Owens
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Re: Third runway at London-Heathrow?

Post by Pete Owens »

tatanab wrote:
Pete Owens wrote:it is astonishing that even contributors to a cycle forum, who you would imagine had some basic concern for the environment,
That is a mistake that some non cyclists make, assuming that just because i choose to use a pedal cycle I must have green credentials.

Yes, but its not just people who choose to cycle - but people who contribute to a cycle campaigning forum.

We have many reasons we might choose to cycle which may or may not have anything to do with concern for the environment. But if you are campaigning for public policy to be changed to encourage other people to cycle it does imply some concern for the impact of our travel patterns. We must all have seen "consultations" on road schemes - where the only question is "which route do you want to see the big new road to take?" rather than is another big new road a good idea in the first place - so why does everyone fall for the "where do we build the extra runway?" question.
Mark R
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Re: Third runway at London-Heathrow?

Post by Mark R »

We must all have seen "consultations" on road schemes - where the only question is "which route do you want to see the big new road to take?" rather than is another big new road a good idea in the first place - so why does everyone fall for the "where do we build the extra runway?" question.


+1 Why do people fall for for it?

IMO this is what is so **** about UK politics....the big questions never get asked.
pwa
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Re: Third runway at London-Heathrow?

Post by pwa »

softlips wrote:
Ben@Forest wrote:
mjr wrote:That sounds more like an argument for strengthening links between Heathrow and the other London airports than a third runway.


To be fair links between Gatwick and Heathrow are pretty good, the coach service is every half hour.


Yep, it’s a coach service! I’ve had to use it when there have been issues at LHR and I’ve been moved to LGW. It needs to be a fast train.

I’m flying as little as possible but have still flown 26 times this year on business. Averaged around 150 a year until this year. For business a coach transfer is unacceptable and too slow.


I'm sure you do what you do for good reasons, but if society as a whole follows your example we are up a very unpleasant river without a paddle. If rising economies like India and China follow your example we will see pollution from air travel soar. If you had a four person family and had no car, the carbon emissions saved would be produced by one long haul return flight. We live in a mad world and we really need to find a way of living without flying.
Airsporter1st
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Re: Third runway at London-Heathrow?

Post by Airsporter1st »

pwa wrote:
softlips wrote:
Ben@Forest wrote:
To be fair links between Gatwick and Heathrow are pretty good, the coach service is every half hour.


Yep, it’s a coach service! I’ve had to use it when there have been issues at LHR and I’ve been moved to LGW. It needs to be a fast train.

I’m flying as little as possible but have still flown 26 times this year on business. Averaged around 150 a year until this year. For business a coach transfer is unacceptable and too slow.


I'm sure you do what you do for good reasons, but if society as a whole follows your example we are up a very unpleasant river without a paddle. If rising economies like India and China follow your example we will see pollution from air travel soar. If you had a four person family and had no car, the carbon emissions saved would be produced by one long haul return flight. We live in a mad world and we really need to find a way of living without flying.
The same can be said for any activity which produces pollution, not only transportation, but also manufacturing and farming, surely?
pwa
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Re: Third runway at London-Heathrow?

Post by pwa »

Airsporter1st wrote:
pwa wrote:
softlips wrote:
Yep, it’s a coach service! I’ve had to use it when there have been issues at LHR and I’ve been moved to LGW. It needs to be a fast train.

I’m flying as little as possible but have still flown 26 times this year on business. Averaged around 150 a year until this year. For business a coach transfer is unacceptable and too slow.


I'm sure you do what you do for good reasons, but if society as a whole follows your example we are up a very unpleasant river without a paddle. If rising economies like India and China follow your example we will see pollution from air travel soar. If you had a four person family and had no car, the carbon emissions saved would be produced by one long haul return flight. We live in a mad world and we really need to find a way of living without flying.
The same can be said for any activity which produces pollution, not only transportation, but also manufacturing and farming, surely?

Well yes. If you are going to greatly reduce carbon emissions you have to consider all the possibilities. We need to farm but, yes, not in a way that pollutes more than is necessary. But do we need to fly? Need?
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Graham
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Re: Third runway at London-Heathrow?

Post by Graham »

Apologies if this has been discussed before. . . . ( Warning : quite a long read )

John Adams : 2001
"Hypermobility : too much of a good thing ?"
http://john-adams.co.uk/wp-content/uplo ... forRSA.pdf
Last edited by Graham on 29 Jun 2018, 8:29am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: I added the title of the paper to describe the contents of the link
Airsporter1st
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Re: Third runway at London-Heathrow?

Post by Airsporter1st »

pwa wrote:
Airsporter1st wrote:
pwa wrote:
I'm sure you do what you do for good reasons, but if society as a whole follows your example we are up a very unpleasant river without a paddle. If rising economies like India and China follow your example we will see pollution from air travel soar. If you had a four person family and had no car, the carbon emissions saved would be produced by one long haul return flight. We live in a mad world and we really need to find a way of living without flying.
The same can be said for any activity which produces pollution, not only transportation, but also manufacturing and farming, surely?

Well yes. If you are going to greatly reduce carbon emissions you have to consider all the possibilities. We need to farm but, yes, not in a way that pollutes more than is necessary. But do we need to fly? Need?


In the ideal world, I guess not, but we do need to work to live (unfortunately) and commercial air travel has been providing employment since 1914. It was a good thing at one time.
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Re: Third runway at London-Heathrow?

Post by thirdcrank »

Airsporter1st wrote:
pwa wrote: ... In the ideal world, I guess not, but we do need to work to live (unfortunately) and commercial air travel has been providing employment since 1914. It was a good thing at one time.


Ditto stagecoaches, canals, trains and motor vehicles. The government is already spinning the demise of the internal combution engine within a couple of decades, with little real idea of what the alternatives may be. Meanwhile, it's cheerfully assumed that air travel will continue unchanged indefinitely. Perhaps Bozzer provides an insight into the future: dirigibles powered by hot air.
pwa
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Re: Third runway at London-Heathrow?

Post by pwa »

Airsporter1st wrote:
pwa wrote:
Airsporter1st wrote: The same can be said for any activity which produces pollution, not only transportation, but also manufacturing and farming, surely?

Well yes. If you are going to greatly reduce carbon emissions you have to consider all the possibilities. We need to farm but, yes, not in a way that pollutes more than is necessary. But do we need to fly? Need?


In the ideal world, I guess not, but we do need to work to live (unfortunately) and commercial air travel has been providing employment since 1914. It was a good thing at one time.


It depends how serious we are about Climate Change stuff. Lip service and gestures only, fine carry on with flying. Serious about it? Hard choices to be made. No point in going for an electric car if you blast out all that CO2 several times a year on a flight.
Airsporter1st
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Re: Third runway at London-Heathrow?

Post by Airsporter1st »

pwa wrote:
Airsporter1st wrote:
pwa wrote:Well yes. If you are going to greatly reduce carbon emissions you have to consider all the possibilities. We need to farm but, yes, not in a way that pollutes more than is necessary. But do we need to fly? Need?


In the ideal world, I guess not, but we do need to work to live (unfortunately) and commercial air travel has been providing employment since 1914. It was a good thing at one time.


It depends how serious we are about Climate Change stuff. Lip service and gestures only, fine carry on with flying. Serious about it? Hard choices to be made. No point in going for an electric car if you blast out all that CO2 several times a year on a flight.


I agree, but I'm afraid we're on a runaway train (plane?) now. No matter what we do, we will never achieve the required world-wide consensus. It will take the depletion of fossil fuels below a sustainable level to have any impact on this headlong rush.
pwa
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Re: Third runway at London-Heathrow?

Post by pwa »

Airsporter1st wrote:
pwa wrote:
Airsporter1st wrote:
In the ideal world, I guess not, but we do need to work to live (unfortunately) and commercial air travel has been providing employment since 1914. It was a good thing at one time.


It depends how serious we are about Climate Change stuff. Lip service and gestures only, fine carry on with flying. Serious about it? Hard choices to be made. No point in going for an electric car if you blast out all that CO2 several times a year on a flight.


I agree, but I'm afraid we're on a runaway train (plane?) now. No matter what we do, we will never achieve the required world-wide consensus. It will take the depletion of fossil fuels below a sustainable level to have any impact on this headlong rush.


Probably right.
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TrevA
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Re: Third runway at London-Heathrow?

Post by TrevA »

pwa wrote:Apparently Wales is more dependent on the car than any other part of the UK. For a fraction of what will be spent on another London infrastructure project we could see real changes for the better. The UK Government could not even find money to electrify the main rail line between Cardiff and Swansea. But no, it is a London airport project that really needs the money. Don't they know that the UK beyond the South East needs money for transport too?

I'm not making a special plea for Wales here. I'm making a special plea for every part of the UK outside the South East, always being told that our infrastructure projects cannot happen because they would cost too much, then watching as yet another London mega project gets the the green light. Waiting for our turn would be okay, but our turn never comes.


Amen to that. The electrification of the Midlands Mainline also got cancelled, because Bi-modal trains (which actually don't yet exist) could make the journey just as quickly as electrified ones.

And yet, it's ok to spend billions on Crossrail, so that people can get from one end of London to the other 10 minutes quicker.
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