Close-pass prevention - Well I never!!!

thirdcrank
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Re: Close-pass prevention - Well I never!!!

Postby thirdcrank » 1 Jul 2018, 12:07pm

Bez wrote: ... Fair enough (I was thinking of S5 of course), but I suspect (happy to be proven wrong) that S4 prosecutions are rare as hen's teeth given the existence of S5, Plus of course other offences like S3A refer to the numerical limit.

Point still stands, though: from a prosecution point of view, relying on a measurement a) is not inherently better, b) can often be worse, and c) given a starting point of 100% cannot possibly be better in this case.


Numbers cut both ways, of course. Taking your breathalyser example, that's what I meant when I wrote "They can then be offered breath tests at a police station which can be used in evidence either way." Blow positive on a police station machine and that's that. Blow negative and even if you are falling about drunk, it's going to take a lot to get the case to court. A clue here is that they have now and at long last introduced tests for the people affected by other substances: the people in my day who were falling about but blew negative.

Bez
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Re: Close-pass prevention - Well I never!!!

Postby Bez » 1 Jul 2018, 12:21pm

Indeed. With the business of measuring distances from video, it would not take much for an expert witness to argue that a given distance is below the prescribed threshold (or for a defence barrister to exploit the unavoidable range of error in a prosecution report). When two expert witnesses disagree, the "beyond reasonable doubt" issue inevitably pushes people towards that of the defence. (What's more, while I admit I've seen few collision investigators' reports—though more than most people, who will have seen none—my impression is that defence lawyers tend to obtain more polished experts than do prosecutors).

thirdcrank
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Re: Close-pass prevention - Well I never!!!

Postby thirdcrank » 1 Jul 2018, 12:47pm

It's harder to prove a case beyond reasonable doubt than it is to create a doubt.

For anybody wanting a bit more insight into what I'm trying to say - and for the wiseacres too - I'd offer Martin Porter's Cycling Lawyer blog as required reading. It's all interesting stuff, even if I don't agree with it all, but the really valuable stuff for this thread is his notes on his private prosecution for what was essentially a close pass. One important aspect was the effect of the defence being able to say that the police had told the defendant there was no case. Beyond that and bearing in mind that as a QC he's a top lawyer, not some ignoramus sounding off in a pub or on the internet, I think it's fair to say he was surprised how much evidence would be needed to convince a jury. Surprised to the extent that he rattled a lot of his learned friends by daring to suggest the abolition of the right to trial by jury in such cases.
http://thecyclingsilk.blogspot.com/2016 ... on-2b.html
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Bonefishblues wrote:But to try to look on the bright side, here's a real issue of concern that seems at least to be starting to get airtime nationally.

Unfortunately, any headline containing the word "cyclist" seems to be clickbait.

Bonefishblues
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Re: Close-pass prevention - Well I never!!!

Postby Bonefishblues » 1 Jul 2018, 12:59pm

However, that seems not to be the case here. A proper exposition of the issues on R4, and other coverage of a serious nature elsewhere. Cup half full and all that.

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Re: Close-pass prevention - Well I never!!!

Postby PH » 1 Jul 2018, 2:21pm

Bonefishblues wrote:But to try to look on the bright side, here's a real issue of concern that seems at least to be starting to get airtime nationally.

I think that's a huge thing and getting the media's attention is something Cycling UK seem to be getting better at.
I want the driver behind to understand my needs, that change in attitude will do more than any change in the law.
We were talking about this today on a group ride, we could all remember when drink driving was acceptable and being caught would get you sympathy, attitudes can change.

reohn2
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Re: Close-pass prevention - Well I never!!!

Postby reohn2 » 1 Jul 2018, 2:33pm

PH wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:But to try to look on the bright side, here's a real issue of concern that seems at least to be starting to get airtime nationally.

I think that's a huge thing and getting the media's attention is something Cycling UK seem to be getting better at.
I want the driver behind to understand my needs, that change in attitude will do more than any change in the law.
We were talking about this today on a group ride, we could all remember when drink driving was acceptable and being caught would get you sympathy, attitudes can change.

IMO attitudes amongst a significant number motorists will change when cycling is seen for it's true potential and not demonized by significant amounts of the media,and when the police and powers that be get active against criminal drivers.

EDITED for typos
Last edited by reohn2 on 1 Jul 2018, 6:42pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Bonefishblues
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Re: Close-pass prevention - Well I never!!!

Postby Bonefishblues » 1 Jul 2018, 3:00pm

PH wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:But to try to look on the bright side, here's a real issue of concern that seems at least to be starting to get airtime nationally.

I think that's a huge thing and getting the media's attention is something Cycling UK seem to be getting better at.
I want the driver behind to understand my needs, that change in attitude will do more than any change in the law.
We were talking about this today on a group ride, we could all remember when drink driving was acceptable and being caught would get you sympathy, attitudes can change.

Our agreement is violent.

thirdcrank
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Re: Close-pass prevention - Well I never!!!

Postby thirdcrank » 1 Jul 2018, 3:06pm

I doubt that it would be possible to replicate the breathalyser revolution today. The most obvious parallel to me is the use of mobile phones. You don't need any sophisticated gadgetry to detect it and there's so much of it going on it would provide easy pickings if there was any real official interest in stopping it. We get spin, licence points increased, phones are apparently checked after serious crashes, but the public perception is that it's both ok and unlikely to result in prosecution.

So, we are back to perception. It's little comfort to be told a typical cyclist might go eight hundred years before being killed on the road, if you feel endangered every time you go out. A succession of governments has decided that it's as easy to influence perception with spin as it is with delivery of policy and immeasurably cheaper. That only works when those on the receiving end of the spin have no personal experience of the situation.

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Re: Close-pass prevention - Well I never!!!

Postby Bonefishblues » 1 Jul 2018, 3:16pm

thirdcrank wrote:I doubt that it would be possible to replicate the breathalyser revolution today. The most obvious parallel to me is the use of mobile phones. You don't need any sophisticated gadgetry to detect it and there's so much of it going on it would provide easy pickings if there was any real official interest in stopping it. We get spin, licence points increased, phones are apparently checked after serious crashes, but the public perception is that it's both ok and unlikely to result in prosecution.

So, we are back to perception. It's little comfort to be told a typical cyclist might go eight hundred years before being killed on the road, if you feel endangered every time you go out. A succession of governments has decided that it's as easy to influence perception with spin as it is with delivery of policy and immeasurably cheaper. That only works when those on the receiving end of the spin have no personal experience of the situation.

I think that momentum is gathering and that mobile phone usage is becoming socially unacceptable. I don't think enforcement is always necessary*, which is lucky, given the lack of it...

No I can't evidence that, it's my perception only, save a few surveys I've seen, so there will have to be some waiting and seeing.

*After all the likelihood of apprehension of drink drivers is very low, and always has been.

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Re: Close-pass prevention - Well I never!!!

Postby al_yrpal » 1 Jul 2018, 3:26pm

"Give as much room as you would passing another vehicle" is just more imprecise waffle, it means feeler gauge passing distance to idiots. 1 metre and 1.5 metres is clear and precise and when accompanied by a MUST (ie its the law) in the Highway Code will result in fewer cyclist injuries and deaths. No amount of waffle changes that.

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thirdcrank
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Re: Close-pass prevention - Well I never!!!

Postby thirdcrank » 1 Jul 2018, 3:38pm

I'd feel more confident if I didn't daily witness poor driving. As one example among many, on Friday evening - 5pm - I left my granddaughter at Rainbows (the most junior part of the Girl Guides) and walking home I heard a screech behind me, followed by several more. The driver of a hot hatch was performing handbrake skids in a long rush-hour line of queuing traffic to prevent a motorcyclist overtaking. It eventually dawned on me that they were collaborating in their antics. When we get back to the darker evenings, vehicles with several lights not working are something of an indicator of how many have no MOT. I hear reports (spin?) from the MIB about the numbers of uninsured vehicles and so on.

Does it matter? I can bask in the warm glow of having been drawing my pension twenty one years next month. From my perch as the member of a cycling forum I can parrot that bad driving is judged by what's acceptable and there seems to be little that's unacceptable.

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Re: Close-pass prevention - Well I never!!!

Postby Cyril Haearn » 1 Jul 2018, 6:36pm

With drink-driving the chance of being caught is/was small but the punishment if caught is/was significant

If the cops went after phone users now they would soon be overwhelmed, handing out pocket-money punishments. Better to increase the penalty, that would deter some, then catch and ban the hard core
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reohn2
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Re: Close-pass prevention - Well I never!!!

Postby reohn2 » 1 Jul 2018, 6:58pm

thirdcrank wrote:I'd feel more confident if I didn't daily witness poor driving. As one example among many, on Friday evening - 5pm - I left my granddaughter at Rainbows (the most junior part of the Girl Guides) and walking home I heard a screech behind me, followed by several more. The driver of a hot hatch was performing handbrake skids in a long rush-hour line of queuing traffic to prevent a motorcyclist overtaking. It eventually dawned on me that they were collaborating in their antics. When we get back to the darker evenings, vehicles with several lights not working are something of an indicator of how many have no MOT. I hear reports (spin?) from the MIB about the numbers of uninsured vehicles and so on.

Does it matter? I can bask in the warm glow of having been drawing my pension twenty one years next month. From my perch as the member of a cycling forum I can parrot that bad driving is judged by what's acceptable and there seems to be little that's unacceptable.

+1
And to add that,when driving my car at the 30mph posted speed limit,I almost always attract a tailgater,and they are almost always young women in small hatchbacks.This afternoon's example was more interested in her hair than the car in front :? .
I'm only glad I have a tow bar fitted and their cars are as a rule smaller than mine :)
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Bonefishblues
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Re: Close-pass prevention - Well I never!!!

Postby Bonefishblues » 1 Jul 2018, 7:03pm

Cyril Haearn wrote:With drink-driving the chance of being caught is/was small but the punishment if caught is/was significant

If the cops went after phone users now they would soon be overwhelmed, handing out pocket-money punishments. Better to increase the penalty, that would deter some, then catch and ban the hard core

It was the shame what done it.

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Re: Close-pass prevention - Well I never!!!

Postby Cyril Haearn » 1 Jul 2018, 7:15pm

Like Mrs + Mr Huhne, that honourable public servant with his personalised number plate :wink: (who paid for that?)
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