Banning cars around schools, the Vienna solution

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The utility cyclist
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Banning cars around schools, the Vienna solution

Postby The utility cyclist » 20 Jul 2018, 10:31pm

Why can't this be a part solution to getting kids to cycle to school, oh and stopping headmasters and loacal authorities from imposing unlawful rules on children to wear special clothing
http://www.eltis.org/discover/news/vien ... school-day

gnvqsos
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Re: Banning cars around schools, the Vienna solution

Postby gnvqsos » 20 Jul 2018, 10:39pm

I imagine that the streets outside the zone will be more busy and more dangerous-the very streets where perhaps many children live?Secondly the Austrians are quyite accepting of a central authority whereas inn the UK we will not accept small restrctions on the unmentionable frree market economy
Last edited by Graham on 24 Jul 2018, 8:37am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Fixing another quotation messup.

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Cunobelin
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Re: Banning cars around schools, the Vienna solution

Postby Cunobelin » 21 Jul 2018, 10:59am

Yep... the British response:

[Parents who risk a criminal record for dropping their children off at school by car today criticised the clampdown as “a sledgehammer to crack a nut” — but others said it would save lives.

Drivers of any vehicle “seen dropping off or picking up pupils” in zones outside four primaries in east London now face fixed penalty notices of £100.

Any who fail to pay within 14 days, or who are caught three times, have been told they will be prosecuted and could be fined up to £1,000. The crackdown, by Havering council, follows complaints about driveways being blocked and overcrowding. It says it follows “years of unsuccessful campaigns to encourage sensible driving and parking outside schools, which saw a small but determined minority continue to park dangerously, putting the lives of children at risk”.

Civil liberties campaigners have criticised it as an abuse of Public Place Protection Order (PSPO) powers, introduced four years ago to curb serious “anti-social” behaviour such as drug dealing. Information sheets issued for the schools involved — James Oglethorpe and Engayne in Upminster, Parsonage Farm in Rainham and Wykeham in Hornchurch — warn parents: “Don’t run the risk of a criminal record.” If deemed a success, the PSPO scheme, in which areas are monitored by CCTV, could be rolled out in schools across London. Normal parking rules, in which people get at least five minutes “grace” from wardens, do not apply.

27abailel2802b.jpg
The scene outside the school gates (Jeremy Selwyn)
At Engayne, where the crackdown was brought in in December, parents cannot now park in streets around the school between 8am and 9.30am and 2.30pm and 4pm. The nearest spot is now about five minutes’ walk away.

Angie Baillieul, 37, who drives in with daughter, Lola, six, said: “This kind of a crackdown is way over the top. It’s a sledgehammer to crack a nut.” Her car has a blue disabled badge allowing her to park in the zone. But she clashed with an enforcement officer who threatened her with a ticket for not properly displaying a clock to show how long she had been parked.

Julie Picton, who walks daughter Ella, nine, to and from school, said: “It was absolutely murder around here. Cars everywhere — there was bound to be a serious accident or worse.” Kevin McKee, 52, a firefighter who lives opposite the school, said: “People would park across my driveway for 15 minutes when I was trying to get to work.”

Councillor Jason Frost said: “Traffic has significantly reduced, and more children are now walking to school, which is a great outcome. I would rather have complaints that we are slightly inconveniencing parents than hear that a child had been seriously injured because nothing was done”


Interesting reporting as to how it is the heavy-handed persecution of innocent mothers trying to keep the children safe....as opposed to the reality of people behaving irresponsibly, illegally and antisocially being dealt with appropriately

The woman who,is the “innocent victim”:

Angie Baillieul, 37, who drives in with daughter, Lola, six, said: “This kind of a crackdown is way over the top. It’s a sledgehammer to crack a nut.” Her car has a blue disabled badge allowing her to park in the zone. But she clashed with an enforcement officer who threatened her with a ticket for not properly displaying a clock to show how long she had been parked.



Yet she is clearly shown as being parked on double yellow lines, on a corner, the fact she failed to also comply with the regulations about disabled badge use merely compounds her arrogance and stupidity

A blue badge does not entitle you to park dangerously

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Re: Banning cars around schools, the Vienna solution

Postby Vorpal » 21 Jul 2018, 11:31am

I'm on a traffic group at our local school, and we are set to do just this in the autumn.

In Norway, it's called 'hjertesone' (heart zone) http://www.eltis.org/discover/news/oslo ... nd-schools

We got some money from a road safety organisation, and a grant from central government. The local council hasn't been entirely cooperative, though, and they still haven't put up the signs that we bought. :(

We also have created an app to help parents find or create a walking bus, and other things.

We've had positive feedback, and we're set with volunteers for the first days of school to block the road (even if we don't have signs!) :D
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craigbroadbent
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Re: Banning cars around schools, the Vienna solution

Postby craigbroadbent » 24 Jul 2018, 8:33am

We also need to stop the not so Yummy Mummies from parking outside with their engines on, before pickup time.
This is illegal, road traffic act 1999 I think, but rarely enforced.
Do we really need to add to the pollution near our childrens' schools?
A 5 minute walk is the least they need to get started everyday.
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Re: Banning cars around schools, the Vienna solution

Postby brynpoeth » 24 Jul 2018, 11:23am

craigbroadbent wrote:We also need to stop the not so Yummy Mummies from parking outside with their engines on, before pickup time.
This is illegal, road traffic act 1999 I think, but rarely enforced.
Do we really need to add to the pollution near our childrens' schools?
A 5 minute walk is the least they need to get started everyday.
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Re: Banning cars around schools, the Vienna solution

Postby Bmblbzzz » 26 Jul 2018, 10:46am

Leopoldstadt is fairly central and the centre of Vienna, unlike British cities of comparable size, has less traffic than the outer regions. Yes, it probably will lead to parents dropping kids off a street or two away instead, but at least that spreads the load somewhat and - perhaps more importantly - ends the idling engines problem.

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Re: Banning cars around schools, the Vienna solution

Postby reohn2 » 26 Jul 2018, 10:53am

craigbroadbent wrote:We also need to stop the not so Yummy Mummies from parking outside with their engines on, before pickup time.
This is illegal, road traffic act 1999 I think, but rarely enforced.
Do we really need to add to the pollution near our childrens' schools?
A 5 minute walk is the least they need to get started everyday.
Image

The problem is that many traffic laws aren't enforced due to a lack of police which in turn over a period leads to drivers becoming ignorant if the law and a sense of entitlement,particularly where illegal and dangerous parking are concerned.
Enforce current laws and illegal driving and parking will stop.
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Re: Banning cars around schools, the Vienna solution

Postby Cunobelin » 26 Jul 2018, 1:26pm

A few years ago there was a Portsmouth School that banned cycling because the behaviour of School run parents made it unsafe!!!!

From CBBC's Newsround:

But Sam's head teacher is really worried about him travelling by bike, because she thinks the road outside his school is too dangerous.
I decided to check it out for myself. It is quite narrow and people sometimes park in places they're not supposed to, like on double yellow lines.
There have been a few accidents on the road in recent years too and it can get really busy when lots of parents are dropping their kids off at the same time.
Sam has passed a test to show he knows how to cycle safely on the road so he reckons he's learnt how to deal with any problems he might come across.
Dangerous
I also spoke to the junior road safety team at the school - a group of 10 and 11-year-olds who've been investigating the risks on the road.
The junior road safety team
Sam told me they also want to cycle in, but at the moment they agree with the head teacher that it's too dangerous.

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Re: Banning cars around schools, the Vienna solution

Postby mattsccm » 26 Jul 2018, 6:03pm

That would be fun where I teach. Not a single child walks to the school. The only one within a mile is the wrong side of a commuters A road with no pavement on the school side. I wouldn't cross that road before school!
Most come from at least several miles away as there is no other choice. Cycling there means 1.5 miles of the A road, once you have finished with the quiet lanes, from one direction but that would at least mean no crossing. The other direction is about the same but includes a bit of D/C and then you are on the wrong side of the road.
Excellent idea in urban areas though.

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The utility cyclist
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Re: Banning cars around schools, the Vienna solution

Postby The utility cyclist » 26 Jul 2018, 10:27pm

mattsccm wrote:That would be fun where I teach. Not a single child walks to the school. The only one within a mile is the wrong side of a commuters A road with no pavement on the school side. I wouldn't cross that road before school!
Most come from at least several miles away as there is no other choice. Cycling there means 1.5 miles of the A road, once you have finished with the quiet lanes, from one direction but that would at least mean no crossing. The other direction is about the same but includes a bit of D/C and then you are on the wrong side of the road.
Excellent idea in urban areas though.

And yet what you describe shouldn't be a barrier to changing the layout, priority and putting in restrictions so that people/children can get from A-B without the need for a motorcar and feel safe to do so. When you look at how certain countries have ripped up through roads in cities and turned them into a place were motorvehicle cannot go at all because there's simply no 'highway' left you know that making changes can be done, it's always about political will and a vision to see how by changing things it's better for everyone in the long run and less costly too.

My sons old school is the only high school in a small town (adjacent to our small town which has essentially three), it takes children from the estate we live on and the numerous villages, there are a couple of buses that do the rounds. These would still be needed as some are quite a distance away and it's fairly undulating so even if parents/pupils thought it were safe it'd be difficult for most anyway especially those in year 7/8 as it would mean a 5-6 miles cycle with approx 50ft/mile ascent. Coming through the town itself is still horrendous at rush hour despite the bypass road which has really made little difference in reality.

Cycling to the school has dwindled massively since he left in 2008, previously there was a 100 places to park bikes in a fully locked and covered 'shed', this was completely removed and built on and now they've got 2x15 space shelters that part cover the bikes but importantly leave them exposed to thieves as they are in the playground next to the road.
So much could be done to encourage kids to cycle in but it's gone backwards. :twisted:

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Re: Banning cars around schools, the Vienna solution

Postby mattsccm » 27 Jul 2018, 7:11am

Whilst I most certainly agree with the above sentiments I doubt their practicality. To start with, in this nanny state we live in it wouldn't just be a case of slapping a strip of gravel alongside the road. There would have to be width allowances and a set of traffic lights in the form of a pedestrian crossing. At the designated parking point there would need to be car parks. You can't just move the issue to a hedged single track lane a mile along the road.
If all this worked there would still be parents parking on the double yellow lines outside the school or in the bus stop or in farm entrances. Anything rather than get their and the kids bikes out the car, ride the bike a mile, drop the kids of, drop bags, hats and all the other junk etc. Reverse this at 3pm.
No way.
Any in one respect even I would object. All that infrastructure for 30 kids. Can I have pot holes filled with the money please?
The principle is sound and in an urban situation viable. In the countryside its less so as kids are in cars anyway. Why would most parents think kindly of a situation that added an hour to either end of their school run? Sad really.

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Re: Banning cars around schools, the Vienna solution

Postby Cunobelin » 27 Jul 2018, 9:42am

We could follow the US answer:





Image

There are already white lines on the roads, crossing signs, stop signs........... yet the motorists who are ignoring all of these will be obeying that little flag?

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Re: Banning cars around schools, the Vienna solution

Postby mjr » 27 Jul 2018, 12:01pm

mattsccm wrote:Whilst I most certainly agree with the above sentiments I doubt their practicality. To start with, in this nanny state we live in it wouldn't just be a case of slapping a strip of gravel alongside the road.

It could be and in many places it is. Some councils with more political will than yours build them and call them things like "TRODs" (I don't remember what that stands for, but I suspect the abbreviation came first).

mattsccm wrote: [...] If all this worked there would still be parents parking on the double yellow lines outside the school or in the bus stop or in farm entrances. Anything rather than get their and the kids bikes out the car, ride the bike a mile, drop the kids of, drop bags, hats and all the other junk etc. Reverse this at 3pm.
No way.

So fine the refusenik [!!!]s. I'd like to see it be 3 points and £150 a go and the money to go into the budget for the school or bus transport or whatever the restriction was protecting. They'd stop soon enough.

mattsccm wrote:Any in one respect even I would object. All that infrastructure for 30 kids. Can I have pot holes filled with the money please?

Because car suspensions are more valuable to you than 30 children's health and wellbeing both now and in the future?

mattsccm wrote:The principle is sound and in an urban situation viable. In the countryside its less so as kids are in cars anyway. Why would most parents think kindly of a situation that added an hour to either end of their school run? Sad really.

It ain't gonna add an hour. Also, few schools are quite as remote from settlements as yours sounds to be, so difficult implementation at that one school shouldn't be allowed to dictate policy IMO.
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Re: Banning cars around schools, the Vienna solution

Postby thirdcrank » 27 Jul 2018, 1:00pm

When I was at primary school, all my grandparents lived closer to the school than I did, and I lived close enough to walk there alone from age four. And, of course, we had no car - just like everyone else.

With both parents often working, we now have more childcare provided by grandparents etc than ever before, but families are often more widespread. Then, there's parental choice of schools, which can mean longer trips to school.

So, in addition to the people who habitually drive everywhere, society has changed so that more children travel further to school as the norm.