Fitting cameras to lorries

Steady rider
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Fitting cameras to lorries

Postby Steady rider » 29 Jul 2018, 10:22am

https://go.intelligent-telematics.co.uk ... gKbqvD_BwE

It is reported incidents may decrease by up to 80%.

The HS2 inquiry has been discussing lorries and providing improved safety for lorries providing material to site. Should all HGVs and buses be required to have cameras fitted? In addition to improving cab design and location to improve viewing conditions.

thirdcrank
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Re: Fitting cameras to lorries

Postby thirdcrank » 29 Jul 2018, 11:48am

I'd be slow to base anything on the publicity of somebody flogging the things.

All but the most ancient buses round here seem to be bristling with cameras inside and out and I think there's a trend to fit them to many other vehicles. There's also a trend to GPS tracking for fleet management purposes and information signs at bus stops. For anybody doing their best to drive carefully, having a dependable record of what happened offers some reassurance. Bearing in mind how cheap this equipment has become, I'm surprised it's not routinely offered as original equipment, which would be preferable to something stuck on the windscreen..

Beyond that, I'm not convinced about the deterrent effects. We did have a thread a while ago - which I can't find - where the driver in a serious crash was filmed by an in-cab camera doing all sorts of silly things immediately before the crash. Also, while the big companies may have a lot of incentive to keep their badged operations squeaky clean, they may have sub-contractors over a barrel in terms of corner cutting performance. Then, cowboys and fly-by-nights just won't bother.

brynpoeth
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Re: Fitting cameras to lorries

Postby brynpoeth » 29 Jul 2018, 11:53am

Electric buses have been introduced here, cost a lot apparently, dunno if they have cameras
Schoolkiddies go to the bus depot and are warned to keep out of the area the bus driver cannae see

Be very afraid :(
Entertainer, kidult, curmudgeon
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras, we love life

brynpoeth
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Re: Fitting cameras to lorries

Postby brynpoeth » 29 Jul 2018, 11:54am

It is one thing to fit mirrors and cameras
It is another thing to ensure they are used
Entertainer, kidult, curmudgeon
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras, we love life

Steady rider
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Re: Fitting cameras to lorries

Postby Steady rider » 29 Jul 2018, 2:46pm

https://www.gov.uk/government/case-stud ... s-the-code

trying to find research
https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/2013/1 ... ths/48793/

https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/news/loc ... ets-438280

She said: “We also use footage for investigations around insurance claims and for operational reasons, which is a fairly standard industry practice.

It looks like companies may benefit in knowing more about accident claims if they install cameras.

pwa
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Re: Fitting cameras to lorries

Postby pwa » 30 Jul 2018, 7:18pm

Don't most newish commercial vehicles already have cameras side and rear for the driver, and front for recording? I have noticed them a lot in recent years. But they are no guarantee of safety. The screen is one of several things the driver is meant to be watching at the same time, and while we have a human being at the centre of things we have human error. I'm sure it is better to have the cameras but I wouldn't expect too much additional safety to come from them.

Tangled Metal
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Re: Fitting cameras to lorries

Postby Tangled Metal » 30 Jul 2018, 8:07pm

I reported a bus driver recently and ended up asking the asst operations manager about difference between two bus services based around age if vehicles used. The newer buses were driven by apparently the better me cycle aware drivers. I asked if there was an increased visibly or newer technology in the newer buses.

The answer was a very short statement that they had the same level of visibility. Since all their drivers have undergone cyclist awareness training and their buses have the same visibility and driver aids that leaves it purely down to driver quality. The drivers of the route with the newest buses are all several leagues better than the other bus routes on the same road.

So at the end of the day I think that my local bus company (actually the national stagecoach bus company) believes drivers are the difference not technology.

thirdcrank
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Re: Fitting cameras to lorries

Postby thirdcrank » 30 Jul 2018, 9:06pm

The type of camera system advertised in the link in the OP is not an extra aid to eliminating blind spots, but one to record evidence: ie a dashcam with brass knobs on.

I presume that most vehicle operators who fit this type of thing are mainly interested in defending against allegations of bad driving especially after a crash, although there may be the side-effect of encouraging drivers to be on their best behaviour.

Steady rider
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Re: Fitting cameras to lorries

Postby Steady rider » 30 Jul 2018, 9:33pm

It could be with the drivers knowing recordings are being made, their behaviour may change somewhat and in addition to any safety benefit from the cameras the behavioural aspects may make a difference. In time the camera equipment may also detect and alert drivers to people close in to the vehicle.

For the USA, light trucks were the most frequent motor vehicle involved in crashes in which a pedal cyclist was killed.
Changes in the proportion of deaths from frontal impacts to side impact situations may help assess if extra information via the cameras from the sides is proving effective. Fatalities involving other vehicles such as motorcycles could also be assessed to see how effective cameras are.

tim-b
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Re: Fitting cameras to lorries

Postby tim-b » 31 Jul 2018, 5:44am

Hi
A modern lorry already has six mirrors fitted, plus side windows and a windscreen to look through. You can't possibly look everywhere even during a comparatively simple left turn, especially if a cyclist that has previously been hidden in traffic hurtles along one side of the lorry
Post-incident footage won't prevent certain types of tragedy, and human nature will eventually ignore the presence of cameras so I'm not sure about the link between cameras and long-term incident reduction. Any reduction has to be a bonus though
Regards
tim-b
~~~~¯\(ツ)/¯~~~~

Steady rider
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Re: Fitting cameras to lorries

Postby Steady rider » 31 Jul 2018, 10:43am

When turning left lorry drivers know cyclists can be on the inside if they are moving slowly.
Checking the inside mirror/signalling/ would I assume make the cyclist aware of the direction the lorry was going in most cases. If fitted with cameras, drivers would probably be more careful knowing their job could be at risk and it may provide an extra incentive to be careful.

Roger Geffen has provide me with extra information as below.
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Cycling UK and the London Cycling Campaign shifted our attention a few years ago, from placing our faith in mirrors, cameras and sensors to ‘direct vision’ cab designs. We questioned why is it that lorries kill so many cyclists (particularly when turning left), whereas buses don’t? We suspected the answer was likely to be due to the difference in the driver’s view. A bus driver is seated close to ground level and is surrounded by a lot of window, including a transparent door. We reasoned that, if a lorry driver had a similar view, they would surely kill fewer people when turning left.

So why are lorry drivers seated so high up in the first place? This is because lorry cab designers want to maximise the amount that can be carried within the maximum permitted length for a lorry. So they put the lorry driver above the engine - making it far harder for the driver to see pedestrians or cyclists near the front corner of the cab. But to compound matters, this lethal design has then become the standard for all lorry cabs - even for lorries that are not of maximum length, such as the construction lorries that are so often involved in cyclists’ deaths.

As it happens, we then found that some lorry manufacturers were already designing new cabs for bin lorries, whose door was like that of a bus (see photo 1 https://www.cyclinguk.org/news/20160210 ... s-cyclists
and photo 2 https://www.cyclinguk.org/press-release ... ndards-met ). However their reason for doing this was to make it much easier for the driver to jump in and out of the cab regularly. So when we then started championing their lorry designs on grounds of cycle safety, they were naturally delighted!.

A team at Loughborough University has since carried out a good deal of research on direct vision lorries (e.g. see press release and more recent research paper http://www.lboro.ac.uk/news-events/news ... 66hgv.html and https://dspace.lboro.ac.uk/dspace-jspui ... um_279.pdf ). This has informed Transport for London’s plans for a direct vision lorry standard https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/roads/ ... s-phase-2/. We have strongly backed this and called for it to be adopted nationally, including by HS2 Ltd. https://www.cyclinguk.org/category/tags ... on-lorries

The Loughborough team also strengthened the argument for focusing on ‘direct vision’ rather than mirrors etc, by pointing out that it would take a lorry driver at least 5 seconds to check all of the mirrors they were supposed to check. There are also doubts about how easy it is for lorry drivers to process all the information that is fed to them from camera systems. Looking out of the window is obviously much more intuitive – you know that any cyclist you can see is in the position where you can see them

None of this is to dismiss the additional value of mirrors, sensors etc. But our main focus is now on getting the lorry industry to switch to direct vision cabs.
--------------

From the above direct view cabs will be a definite benefit and cameras may help to change behaviour and also provide a record in some accidents, helping to determine what went wrong. It will take a long time to change all lorries and light goods vehicles could be another issue. Cameras are relatively cheap and could be fitted to existing vehicles in the short term.
Last edited by Steady rider on 31 Jul 2018, 5:03pm, edited 1 time in total.

pwa
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Re: Fitting cameras to lorries

Postby pwa » 31 Jul 2018, 11:03am

With all the different things a lorry driver should be looking at when pulling away or turning at a busy junction I suspect the danger will not reduce much until machine rather than man is in charge of monitoring cameras. And surely the technology for preventing a lorry turning left into a cyclist, even when the driver's attention is elsewhere, is already with us.

pwa
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Re: Fitting cameras to lorries

Postby pwa » 31 Jul 2018, 11:06am

Cameras are already commonplace. Look at the next Tesco delivery van you see, and you are likely to see a tiny camera built into the wing mirror.

PRL
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Re: Fitting cameras to lorries

Postby PRL » 5 Aug 2018, 10:17pm

pwa wrote:With all the different things a lorry driver should be looking at when pulling away or turning at a busy junction I suspect the danger will not reduce much until machine rather than man is in charge of monitoring cameras. And surely the technology for preventing a lorry turning left into a cyclist, even when the driver's attention is elsewhere, is already with us.


I have seen a demonstration of a commercial camera/computer system that can model the trajectory of road users and sound an alarm if a collision is imminent. Perhaps it should slam on the brakes.

AlaninWales
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Re: Fitting cameras to lorries

Postby AlaninWales » 6 Aug 2018, 9:36am

pwa wrote:Cameras are already commonplace. Look at the next Tesco delivery van you see, and you are likely to see a tiny camera built into the wing mirror.

Same on my car. They only give me an image when in reverse though; although they are part of the system that warns me of cars in my "blind spot" (i.e. clearly visible in side mirror) when I indicate to change lanes (they also warn of close hedges on country lanes and can't distinguish between them and vulnerable road users in the same place).