Electric car charging to kill off segregated cycle lanes

thirdcrank
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Re: Electric car charging to kill off segregated cycle lanes

Postby thirdcrank » 7 Aug 2018, 4:18pm

Some info here about subsidies:

https://www.gov.uk/government/collectio ... n-vehicles

Here's a pic of a typical domestic charging point

charger.jpg
charger.jpg (10.7 KiB) Viewed 512 times

StephenW
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Re: Electric car charging to kill off segregated cycle lanes

Postby StephenW » 23 Aug 2018, 6:59pm

It seems to me that there are three questions being discussed here:

1. Are electric cars any good?
2. Are segregated cycle paths any good?
3. Will electric car charging points interfere with cycle paths?

I think electric cars probably do have some role to play in the future, but I think they are also considerably over-hyped. There is very great potential for reducing emissions by making internal-combustion cars have the performance of cars from the 1950s, but with the technology of today. Clearly this requires a change in expectations of a car's performance, but then so do electric cars, just in slightly different ways. Personally I would find a long range and rapid refueling more important than speedy acceleration and a top speed far in excess of what is legal. Really, the only thing which quick acceleration is useful for is overtaking, and we could choose to set speed limits and road layouts to reduce the need for overtaking (which is a dangerous maneuvre anyway).

I happen to think that, when designed and constructed to a good standard, in appropriate locations, cycle paths are very worthwhile.

I don't see that electric car charging points have too much to do with cycle paths. As Wanlock Dad said, most of the charging points would be likely to be roads that would not require cycle paths under the Dutch system. But if they are on roads with cycle paths, that is no problem.

E.g. https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.34976 ... 312!8i6656

Richard D
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Re: Electric car charging to kill off segregated cycle lanes

Postby Richard D » 23 Aug 2018, 10:31pm

The strange thing is just how much people will accept society providing free storage for all of these motor cars (with huge amounts of road space already dedicated to providing parking spaces for cars that are unused 23 hours a day), and no doubt EXTRA storage spaces - with free/subsidised charging points - will be expected for electric cars.

Yet the first sign of public money being spent on a bike lane (along which bicycles travel - they’re never simply abandoned in a bike lane, as cars are on 75% of the roads that I ride on) and the Daily Mail plus the Moton public start frothing at the mouth.

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squeaker
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Re: Electric car charging to kill off segregated cycle lanes

Postby squeaker » 24 Aug 2018, 10:41am

thirdcrank wrote:I've a feeling they may be a requirement on new houses because some quite small new houses near here all have them as standard.
Probably a requirement of the local planning authority - don't think it's a national thing (yet). Pity all new houses don't have to be to passivhaus standard though (something the current gov. backed away from, IIRC).
FWIW, and based on very limited experience, electric cars are great, provided you don't do >100 mile trips on a very regular basis (obvious generalisation: Tesla owners excepted, etc.). Quiet, minimal maintenance, and can take power from your domestic PV provided you use something like a Zappi to manage the energy flows.
However they are still girt big lumps of metal, plastic and rubber carrying relatively small lumps of people around in a less than efficient manner, happily stirring up particulate matter from the road surface as they go and quite capable of causing the usual carnage to others - so not all good :lol:
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pwa
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Re: Electric car charging to kill off segregated cycle lanes

Postby pwa » 24 Aug 2018, 11:24am


That bit of carriageway is exceptionally wide.

chris_suffolk
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Re: Electric car charging to kill off segregated cycle lanes

Postby chris_suffolk » 25 Aug 2018, 4:04pm

Cunobelin wrote:One of the downside to electric vehicles has always been the charging time.


The other major downside is range.

I've just been to the Alps to cycle the Cols, and left home (Suffolk) only needing to fill up once I arrived - 11 hours and 600+ miles driving. In an electric car I'd have had to add about 10 hours charging time (assuming a range of 200 miles, which is generous). Would have added an extra day or even two to the travel time (each way) - no thank you!!

And didn't see too many (well any) charging points anywhere near any of the Alpine Cols - maybe I didn't look hard enough :lol:

kwackers
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Re: Electric car charging to kill off segregated cycle lanes

Postby kwackers » 25 Aug 2018, 6:19pm

chris_suffolk wrote:The other major downside is range.

I've just been to the Alps to cycle the Cols, and left home (Suffolk) only needing to fill up once I arrived - 11 hours and 600+ miles driving. In an electric car I'd have had to add about 10 hours charging time (assuming a range of 200 miles, which is generous). Would have added an extra day or even two to the travel time (each way) - no thank you!!

And didn't see too many (well any) charging points anywhere near any of the Alpine Cols - maybe I didn't look hard enough :lol:

Is that a trip you do often?

Personally I'm a fan of buying a small car that does me for 99% of my driving and hiring something when I need it. My next car will be electric. Any journeys it can't do will be either public transport or hired vehicles.

In a few years I reckon the situation will be reversed, you'll be driving with an eye on where the nearest petrol station is whilst passing many fast charging points.

(I'm not sure where you get the 10 hours charging time either. I think my neighbours Tesla can get 300 miles worth in about 45 minutes - and if they use the Tesla charging points - which for some reason always seem to be in hotels! Then they get free 'juice' and usually free tea and cake thrown in to boot! i think a 45 minute break every few hundred miles is probably a good idea too.)

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Re: Electric car charging to kill off segregated cycle lanes

Postby Bonefishblues » 25 Aug 2018, 6:28pm

I agree. I think we're closer to the tipping point than most people imagine.

thirdcrank
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Re: Electric car charging to kill off segregated cycle lanes

Postby thirdcrank » 25 Aug 2018, 7:03pm

I'd like some sort of explanation of where the electricity might come from. At the moment, we hear all sorts of doom-laden tales about older power stations being prematurely taken out of service before new capacity becomes available, it's suggested that silly guaranteed prices are being offered to tempt nuclear consortia to build, and all manner of subsidies are being offered for renewables. That's all just to "keep the lights on." I'm confused where all the extra generating power will come from to replace petrol and oil as the main transport fuel.

One possibility I can imagine, with the fall in the price of solar panels would be more being fitted to domestic roofs so that people could give some sort of charge to their car. Obviously, it would be no good plugging in overnight as the sun doesn't shine then so that might only work for people on permanent nights, but perhaps there's scope for interchangeable batteries, although when I last suggested this, IIRC it was dismissed because of the problems with handling the batteries.

Bonefishblues
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Re: Electric car charging to kill off segregated cycle lanes

Postby Bonefishblues » 25 Aug 2018, 7:19pm

Battery storage technology is increasing in leaps and bounds (my engineer brother's heading up a domestic storage programme). Electric cars are also envisaged as storage and feed-in units.

thirdcrank
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Re: Electric car charging to kill off segregated cycle lanes

Postby thirdcrank » 25 Aug 2018, 8:26pm

Bonefishblues wrote:Battery storage technology is increasing in leaps and bounds (my engineer brother's heading up a domestic storage programme). Electric cars are also envisaged as storage and feed-in units.


That's an understanable development, but the electricity needs to be generated before it can be stored. At present, much (most?) renewable generation only seems viable in individual systems through subsidies.

Bonefishblues
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Re: Electric car charging to kill off segregated cycle lanes

Postby Bonefishblues » 25 Aug 2018, 9:13pm

thirdcrank wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:Battery storage technology is increasing in leaps and bounds (my engineer brother's heading up a domestic storage programme). Electric cars are also envisaged as storage and feed-in units.


That's an understanable development, but the electricity needs to be generated before it can be stored. At present, much (most?) renewable generation only seems viable in individual systems through subsidies.

I was building on your domestic roofs, as it were. Store it once it's made, feed it into the network when needed, draw it out similarly. One of the issues we have is a lack of storage, not the ability to produce sufficient power, iyswim - everyone wants it at the same time: East Enders O'clock!

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squeaker
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Re: Electric car charging to kill off segregated cycle lanes

Postby squeaker » 26 Aug 2018, 8:47am

thirdcrank wrote:That's an understanable development, but the electricity needs to be generated before it can be stored. At present, much (most?) renewable generation only seems viable in individual systems through subsidies.

A bit like much of the fossil fuel extraction industry?

As to where the energy might come from, Without Hot Air is probably still the definitive read on the subject (and free to read online, a great legacy for a great man). As has already been mentioned, large scale battery tech will help, but so will distributed energy generation and storage (this means you ;) ).

YMMV, of course...
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thirdcrank
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Re: Electric car charging to kill off segregated cycle lanes

Postby thirdcrank » 26 Aug 2018, 9:56am

I don't think there's any point trying to look for rational logic in this, which is why we have the present carry on with vehicles jammed nose to tail burning the finite supply of oil and polluting the atmosphere. Indeed, a lot of the discussion here is about how the current pattern of vehicle usage might be maintained with different fuel systems.

kwackers
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Re: Electric car charging to kill off segregated cycle lanes

Postby kwackers » 26 Aug 2018, 10:48am

thirdcrank wrote:I don't think there's any point trying to look for rational logic in this, which is why we have the present carry on with vehicles jammed nose to tail burning the finite supply of oil and polluting the atmosphere. Indeed, a lot of the discussion here is about how the current pattern of vehicle usage might be maintained with different fuel systems.

I've no problem with vehicles jammed nose to tail - particularly electric vehicles!
I've never been in danger from a stationary car...

But you've got solar panels I believe?
We're fast approaching a point where often there's more energy than we actually need, just not at the right times.

Fast car chargers usually have back up batteries simply because they can't pull that much power from the grid. So they charge when they can and then dump that power to the cars battery when it's plugged in.
Then most cars spend most of their time off the road and presumably hooked up to a charging point.
Both of which means the consumers are paying for vast amounts of battery storage which can be utilised to both store and deliver power when needed. Most charging will take place overnight when energy is cheap and plentiful - or if during the day then when the sun is shining or the wind is blowing.

Even now without electric cars there'd be enormous benefits to balancing grid load, with electric cars it may well be that balancing is a free side effect.