Death by Dangerous Cycling

kwackers
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Re: Death by Dangerous Cycling

Post by kwackers »

Postboxer wrote:Being discussed on Radio 2 now. Quite angry already.

Edit - I'm angry, not them. Can play angry driver bingo if anyone knows where to print the cards from.

Why do that to yourself?

Once someone has decided they don't like cyclists then expect any and every justification to support that view no matter how ludicrous.
thirdcrank
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Re: Death by Dangerous Cycling

Post by thirdcrank »

So, in the words of Vladimir Ilyich Lenin "Что делать?" - What is to be done?

It seems to me that the choice is between campaigning for stronger enforcement of traffic law or appearing to whinge about the unfairness of it all.

Whatever else he did, Alliston brought this into the public eye in a sensational way. The deceased's widower is understandably determined and will continue to press this.

I think we are all agreed about a motor vehicle's much greater potential to kill and injure than that of a pedal cycle. Indeed, this is reflected in the current law which rightly imposes a much greater burden of legislation on motor traffic than cyclists, both in terms of the extent of the legislation and the maximum penalties. It seems to me that that we have most to gain from pressing for that law to be properly enforced, which also includes accepting that cyclists should obey the law. To summarise, a big complaint is that drivers can get away with murder; I think we've more to gain from campaigning to stop that, rather than arguing that cyclists should be free to do the same.
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mjr
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Re: Death by Dangerous Cycling

Post by mjr »

thirdcrank wrote:It seems to me that the choice is between campaigning for stronger enforcement of traffic law or appearing to whinge about the unfairness of it all.

That seems like a false dichotomy because pressing for stronger enforcement of existing laws does not mean agreeing that it is currently fair.

thirdcrank wrote:Whatever else he did, Alliston brought this into the public eye in a sensational way. The deceased's widower is understandably determined and will continue to press this.

Is letting the bereaved dictate legislation this much ever a good idea? They are - quite understandably - not objective, however much we feel for them. These suggested new laws are a massive distraction from and a minor further deterrent to increasing cycling and reducing road casualties.

thirdcrank wrote:It seems to me that that we have most to gain from pressing for that law to be properly enforced, which also includes accepting that cyclists should obey the law. To summarise, a big complaint is that drivers can get away with murder; I think we've more to gain from campaigning to stop that, rather than arguing that cyclists should be free to do the same.

Which is wonderful and all, but what would you do about these suggested new laws? Iin the words of Vladimir Ilyich Lenin "Что делать?" - What is to be done?
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thirdcrank
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Re: Death by Dangerous Cycling

Post by thirdcrank »

mjr wrote: ... Which is wonderful and all, but what would you do about these suggested new laws? Iin the words of Vladimir Ilyich Lenin "Что делать?" - What is to be done?


The only new law I have in mind is causing death by dangerous cycling. I'd accept that this is almost certainly coming, and the only thing likely to stop it is something totally unconnected like the calling of a General Election.

Trying to look at this the other way round, the loudest voices here condemned both the original manslaughter charge and the furious cycling charge: are they seriously suggesting that these offences should be scrapped and not replaced? I think we are agreed that few people are killed by dangerous cycling, but when they are, they are dead.

It's futile bickering on here. The debate is being held elsewhere.
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PS Forgot to say re campaigning bereaved etc, I do not think it is right that they should have much influence over the prosecution of individual cases, but campaigning to have the law changed is quite different and they have a right to be heard.
Last edited by thirdcrank on 13 Aug 2018, 1:53pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The utility cyclist
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Re: Death by Dangerous Cycling

Post by The utility cyclist »

thirdcrank wrote:So, in the words of Vladimir Ilyich Lenin "Что делать?" - What is to be done?

It seems to me that the choice is between campaigning for stronger enforcement of traffic law or appearing to whinge about the unfairness of it all.

Whatever else he did, Alliston brought this into the public eye in a sensational way. The deceased's widower is understandably determined and will continue to press this.

I think we are all agreed about a motor vehicle's much greater potential to kill and injure than that of a pedal cycle. Indeed, this is reflected in the current law which rightly imposes a much greater burden of legislation on motor traffic than cyclists, both in terms of the extent of the legislation and the maximum penalties. It seems to me that that we have most to gain from pressing for that law to be properly enforced, which also includes accepting that cyclists should obey the law. To summarise, a big complaint is that drivers can get away with murder; I think we've more to gain from campaigning to stop that, rather than arguing that cyclists should be free to do the same.

The law/rules of the road aren't applied even handedly now, what makes you think with another law for people riding bikes that will change?
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Re: Death by Dangerous Cycling

Post by thirdcrank »

The utility cyclist wrote: ... The law/rules of the road aren't applied even handedly now, what makes you think with another law for people riding bikes that will change?


All I'm saying - repepeatedy - is that as vulnerable road users we have most to gain from robust enforcement. I don't know how to say that any other way. I can't see that we have anything to gain by saying that everybody else is breaking the law so it's unfair if we cannot do the same.
Postboxer
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Re: Death by Dangerous Cycling

Post by Postboxer »

The problem is they are singling out cycling and announcing a review into cycling laws, without looking at the driving laws, which clearly aren't working and clearly doing far far more damage.
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Re: Death by Dangerous Cycling

Post by gobybike »

mumbojumbo wrote:
This is attempting to put out a fire in a waste paper bin, whilst the skyscraper behind you is ablaze.

1700 road deaths a year, 450 pedestrians killed each year, of which 2 or 3 involve bicycles.


I imagine most pedestrians are killed crossing the road,not when on pavement.In our area cycclists use the pavement at high sppeds,and do pose a risk.These cyclist are not insurance holders and I belkieve many policies are invalid for paement cyclists.


Certainly not defending those who ride recklessly on the pavement, but those 3 cases could also have been on the road (the one we all know about certainly was). And the assumption is that the cyclist is always at fault, rather than a jaywalking pedestrian.
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Re: Death by Dangerous Cycling

Post by thirdcrank »

I think it's true to say that a review of the entire subject was promised and this has been so slow to materialise that it's in danger of being forgotten.

The causing death by dangerous cycling issue has been brought to public attention and it's not going to go away. My understanding is that CyclingUK is trying to ensure that the focus is switched to that wider review. In difficult circumstances, they seem to be taking the best approach: I would say that because I believe it to be true. As I've said, the debate that matters isn't taking place on here. It will affect nothing, unless some hack is looking for material for a piece condemning cyclists using their own words.
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Re: Death by Dangerous Cycling

Post by Cyril Haearn »

Time to demand adoption of the three Es:
Enforcement, enforcement and enforcement

(not entertainment, education and empathy) :?
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pjclinch
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Re: Death by Dangerous Cycling

Post by pjclinch »

pjclinch wrote:Cunobelin's valid point aside, in a typical year there's something like (citing from memory, may not be properly accurate) 40 deaths of pedestrians on pavements and verges, usually 100% of which are down to motor vehicles.


My mistake, latest figure is 66
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reohn2
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Re: Death by Dangerous Cycling

Post by reohn2 »

gobybike wrote:Certainly not defending those who ride recklessly on the pavement, but those 3 cases could also have been on the road (the one we all know about certainly was). And the assumption is that the cyclist is always at fault, rather than a jaywalking pedestrian.


But there isn't a jaywalking law in the UK.

Thinking about this a little more,how do we think a deah by dangerous cycling law,will effect cycling in the UK?
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meic
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Re: Death by Dangerous Cycling

Post by meic »

how do we think a deah by dangerous cycling law,will effect cycling in the UK?

Not at all.
It is so unlikely to ever happen to any individual cyclist that it will just be ignored as much as the chance of lightening striking or a meteorite landing on your head (with or without protective helmet).
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Re: Death by Dangerous Cycling

Post by fastpedaller »

reohn2 wrote:
gobybike wrote:Certainly not defending those who ride recklessly on the pavement, but those 3 cases could also have been on the road (the one we all know about certainly was). And the assumption is that the cyclist is always at fault, rather than a jaywalking pedestrian.


But there isn't a jaywalking law in the UK.

Thinking about this a little more,how do we think a deah by dangerous cycling law,will effect cycling in the UK?

Probably very little except for those who choose to ride dangerously (and give the rest of us a bad press)
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Re: Death by Dangerous Cycling

Post by thirdcrank »

I think that the biggest effect would be to deflect attention from the bigger issues ie pretty much what a lot of people have been saying. This is why I've been saying it's not worth fighting because that will just deflect more attention from those bigger issues. It's too easy to characterise cyclists as the problem then deal with that. The spin doctors obviously see scapegoating cyclists as a vote winner.

Since we know that very few cyclists kill anybody by dangerous, careless or any other cycling, the effect of legislation on cyclists will be minimal.
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