HC update - opening motor vehicle doors ...

User avatar
661-Pete
Posts: 7864
Joined: 22 Nov 2012, 8:45pm

Re: HC update - opening motor vehicle doors ...

Postby 661-Pete » 24 Oct 2018, 10:58am

I won't add anything to the "roulette" debate, but perhaps should point out that I'm often forced into the door zone because of an approaching vehicle. There's no way out of that one! If uncertain, my best move is to slow down to a speed at which I can stop in time if the worst happens...
Pete

Et qui rit des curés d'Oc?/De Meuse raines, houp! de cloques./De quelles loques ce turque coin./Et ne d'anes ni rennes,/Ecuries des curés d'Oc. - Louis d'Antin

User avatar
mjr
Posts: 11450
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 7:06pm
Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
Contact:

Re: HC update - opening motor vehicle doors ...

Postby mjr » 24 Oct 2018, 11:07am

661-Pete wrote:I won't add anything to the "roulette" debate, but perhaps should point out that I'm often forced into the door zone because of an approaching vehicle. There's no way out of that one! If uncertain, my best move is to slow down to a speed at which I can stop in time if the worst happens...

There's a couple of ways out: you persuade them to stop between cars, or you stop between cars. It's your choice to squeeze by and accept the dooring risk. As I was taught: the moving cars might get out of your way, but the stopped ones definitely won't.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

thirdcrank
Posts: 27553
Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: HC update - opening motor vehicle doors ...

Postby thirdcrank » 24 Oct 2018, 11:16am

I've experimented with the Dutch door reach several times since I first heard about it and I can see a couple of things about it. One is that it may remind somebody opening a vehicle door to look out for cyclists, but you can do it with your eyes shut so it doesn't ensure that people look. Then, it's observable, in the sense that during a driving test, the examiner can tick a box to say whether the candidate did it or not. It's not so easy to check whether somebody is actually looking properly, rather than just twisting round a bit.

It seems to me, then, that some of the benefits are indirect in that publicising/ emphasising this procedure may concentrate people's attention on the need for care when opening doors. Passengers don't have any sort of training or testing, of course, so it might not be so effective with them.

I'll suggest that the most this can do is to make a contribution: it's by no means a complete solution.

User avatar
meic
Posts: 19355
Joined: 1 Feb 2007, 9:37pm
Location: Caerfyrddin (Carmarthen)

Re: HC update - opening motor vehicle doors ...

Postby meic » 24 Oct 2018, 11:29am

The ideal solution is that people open car doors with an awareness of what is around and an unwavering aim of not opening it in the path of anybody else. If we had such an attitude in the populace, promoting the Dutch Reach would be a waste of time and effort.

You could promote the correct attitude through education and threat of repercussions but unlikely that we will actually get there. For relatively little effort on everybody's part the Dutch Reach could become a habitual thing for a much larger proportion of the car using population.
Yma o Hyd

reohn2
Posts: 32270
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: HC update - opening motor vehicle doors ...

Postby reohn2 » 24 Oct 2018, 11:54am

meic wrote:The ideal solution is that people open car doors with an awareness of what is around and an unwavering aim of not opening it in the path of anybody else. If we had such an attitude in the populace, promoting the Dutch Reach would be a waste of time and effort.

You could promote the correct attitude through education and threat of repercussions but unlikely that we will actually get there. For relatively little effort on everybody's part the Dutch Reach could become a habitual thing for a much larger proportion of the car using population.

The problem in the UK is that we are a nation years behind in considering the vulnerable road user due to an all out "car is king" culture that gives no consideration.
We're in the position NL was in the late 60's early 70's,trying to play catch up but with and unwilling government a very distinct class system that dictates you're a poor nobody if you ride a bike,and a lack of law enforcement with penalties to match.
In other word cyclists don't count for much,that's the fact of it.
Until those anomalies are addressed all the advice to motorists(along with the silly distance mats) will have little to no effect.
A typical example ride,yesterday on a 35mile ride 70% of which was off road on either towpath,gravel road or single track,I was overtake closely on four occasions,one was marginal,two within a metre and one very close indeedat about 30cm with a speed diffential of 30mph,worst of all he had a clear lane to his right with no on coming cars.
In short I'm bullied by motorists everytime I ride on the road and no one's doing anything about it,sorry to wander off thread but it's a sorry state of affairs all round for cyclists on UK roads IMO.
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

brynpoeth
Posts: 8363
Joined: 30 Nov 2013, 11:26am

Re: HC update - opening motor vehicle doors ...

Postby brynpoeth » 24 Oct 2018, 12:07pm

Maybe vehicles could be fitted with sliding doors
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love safety cameras & STOP signs

User avatar
mjr
Posts: 11450
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 7:06pm
Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
Contact:

Re: HC update - opening motor vehicle doors ...

Postby mjr » 24 Oct 2018, 12:12pm

One thing I just wondered is whether reaching across with the opposite arm actually forces a slower door open because you cannot reach as far with that arm, so cannot fling the door so far before your head starts to leave the cabin... so the benefits mostly aren't from any sort of conscious look before you open, just that you open it less far and then your head's outside anyway.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

User avatar
The utility cyclist
Posts: 1847
Joined: 22 Aug 2016, 12:28pm

Re: HC update - opening motor vehicle doors ...

Postby The utility cyclist » 24 Oct 2018, 4:27pm

reohn2 wrote:
meic wrote:The ideal solution is that people open car doors with an awareness of what is around and an unwavering aim of not opening it in the path of anybody else. If we had such an attitude in the populace, promoting the Dutch Reach would be a waste of time and effort.

You could promote the correct attitude through education and threat of repercussions but unlikely that we will actually get there. For relatively little effort on everybody's part the Dutch Reach could become a habitual thing for a much larger proportion of the car using population.

The problem in the UK is that we are a nation years behind in considering the vulnerable road user due to an all out "car is king" culture that gives no consideration.
We're in the position NL was in the late 60's early 70's,trying to play catch up but with and unwilling government a very distinct class system that dictates you're a poor nobody if you ride a bike,and a lack of law enforcement with penalties to match.
In other word cyclists don't count for much,that's the fact of it.
Until those anomalies are addressed all the advice to motorists(along with the silly distance mats) will have little to no effect.
A typical example ride,yesterday on a 35mile ride 70% of which was off road on either towpath,gravel road or single track,I was overtake closely on four occasions,one was marginal,two within a metre and one very close indeedat about 30cm with a speed diffential of 30mph,worst of all he had a clear lane to his right with no on coming cars.
In short I'm bullied by motorists everytime I ride on the road and no one's doing anything about it,sorry to wander off thread but it's a sorry state of affairs all round for cyclists on UK roads IMO.

We're in a far worse position than the Dutch were in that period, the ingrained thinking of car is king has been around for 30 years (a 1989 survey done where I lived as a child/young adult still showed over 20% cycle commuting within the city) so cycling has effectively been off the agenda for a very long time for most, that was not the case with the Dutch in the 60s/70s.
It was still a relatively new thing and high cycle participation still existed in adults and children, the whole culture of cycling (as a mode of transport) has been lost here, there's also less gain in ease of riding a modern bike than there is driving a modern car so society as a whole don't want to give up that comfort, if cars were still the rubbish offerings of the 60s/70s that would change things quite a lot in terms of decision making for many people, especially fuel economy which was also one of the big factors at the time. Motoring was still expensive back then, now it's ridiculously cheap.

User avatar
The utility cyclist
Posts: 1847
Joined: 22 Aug 2016, 12:28pm

Re: HC update - opening motor vehicle doors ...

Postby The utility cyclist » 24 Oct 2018, 4:33pm

mjr wrote:One thing I just wondered is whether reaching across with the opposite arm actually forces a slower door open because you cannot reach as far with that arm, so cannot fling the door so far before your head starts to leave the cabin... so the benefits mostly aren't from any sort of conscious look before you open, just that you open it less far and then your head's outside anyway.

A lot of people use their foot and their arm to punt the modern heavy doors open, I know I have done with my Passat, if you think about it, there's less leverage with your right arm being next to the door than leaning across with your left, it still has no guarantee anyone will actually look properly.
I personally think the resources on this could be better spent elsewhere (time and money) that would have a far more effective outcome on cycling safety, like peak time information films, government actually pressing police, CPS and judges to prosecute assaults, which is what a car door being opened on you is. Changing the law to reflect outcomes like death which are basically dismissed as minor incidents.

Barks
Posts: 207
Joined: 14 Oct 2016, 5:27pm

Re: HC update - opening motor vehicle doors ...

Postby Barks » 24 Oct 2018, 4:41pm

If Chris Grayling had been prosecuted then their would have benn massive generation of free public awareness - in fact, as the then Transport Secretary,he missed a perfect opportunity to promote better adherence to the law on this. Shame he couldn’t see his way to giving up a measly ( to him) £1000) to advance the cause. Oh, he did exactly the opposite, put the blame squarely on the poor cyclist that he knocked onto the pavement.

reohn2
Posts: 32270
Joined: 26 Jun 2009, 8:21pm

Re: HC update - opening motor vehicle doors ...

Postby reohn2 » 24 Oct 2018, 11:39pm

The utility cyclist wrote:
reohn2 wrote:
meic wrote:The ideal solution is that people open car doors with an awareness of what is around and an unwavering aim of not opening it in the path of anybody else. If we had such an attitude in the populace, promoting the Dutch Reach would be a waste of time and effort.

You could promote the correct attitude through education and threat of repercussions but unlikely that we will actually get there. For relatively little effort on everybody's part the Dutch Reach could become a habitual thing for a much larger proportion of the car using population.

The problem in the UK is that we are a nation years behind in considering the vulnerable road user due to an all out "car is king" culture that gives no consideration.
We're in the position NL was in the late 60's early 70's,trying to play catch up but with and unwilling government a very distinct class system that dictates you're a poor nobody if you ride a bike,and a lack of law enforcement with penalties to match.
In other word cyclists don't count for much,that's the fact of it.
Until those anomalies are addressed all the advice to motorists(along with the silly distance mats) will have little to no effect.
A typical example ride,yesterday on a 35mile ride 70% of which was off road on either towpath,gravel road or single track,I was overtake closely on four occasions,one was marginal,two within a metre and one very close indeedat about 30cm with a speed diffential of 30mph,worst of all he had a clear lane to his right with no on coming cars.
In short I'm bullied by motorists everytime I ride on the road and no one's doing anything about it,sorry to wander off thread but it's a sorry state of affairs all round for cyclists on UK roads IMO.

We're in a far worse position than the Dutch were in that period, the ingrained thinking of car is king has been around for 30 years (a 1989 survey done where I lived as a child/young adult still showed over 20% cycle commuting within the city) so cycling has effectively been off the agenda for a very long time for most, that was not the case with the Dutch in the 60s/70s.
It was still a relatively new thing and high cycle participation still existed in adults and children, the whole culture of cycling (as a mode of transport) has been lost here, there's also less gain in ease of riding a modern bike than there is driving a modern car so society as a whole don't want to give up that comfort, if cars were still the rubbish offerings of the 60s/70s that would change things quite a lot in terms of decision making for many people, especially fuel economy which was also one of the big factors at the time. Motoring was still expensive back then, now it's ridiculously cheap.

You could well be right,my point was that the UK is way behind on sensible local travel on many levels.
Only tonight on BBC local news it was reported that central Manchester is far more polluted from cars than previously thought,but no one mentioned the obvious solution,which is to provide decent public transport,promote other benign forms of local transport in and around the city and ban the cars,way to radical!
Instead they mentioned congestion charges which motorists will pay before walking 5 metres :?
-----------------------------------------------------------
I cycle therefore I am.

User avatar
mjr
Posts: 11450
Joined: 20 Jun 2011, 7:06pm
Location: Norfolk or Somerset, mostly
Contact:

Re: HC update - opening motor vehicle doors ...

Postby mjr » 24 Oct 2018, 11:51pm

reohn2 wrote:Only tonight on BBC local news it was reported that central Manchester is far more polluted from cars than previously thought,but no one mentioned the obvious solution,which is to provide decent public transport,promote other benign forms of local transport in and around the city and ban the cars,way to radical!
Instead they mentioned congestion charges which motorists will pay before walking 5 metres :?

Already been tried and voted down in Manchester, hasn't it? But local government has got to do something and can't be seen to be doing more to support mass transport or walking and cycling(!), so I suspect the most polluting vehicles will have to pay to enter a Clean Air Zone in the near future.
MJR, mostly pedalling 3-speed roadsters. KL+West Norfolk BUG incl social easy rides http://www.klwnbug.co.uk
All the above is CC-By-SA and no other implied copyright license to Cycle magazine.

Steady rider
Posts: 2114
Joined: 4 Jan 2009, 4:31pm

Re: HC update - opening motor vehicle doors ...

Postby Steady rider » 25 Oct 2018, 8:14pm

Regarding narrow country lanes. Often drivers will stop to allow cyclists to pass and often they will continue to drive at near to 10-20 mph. If a car is approaching, drivers may stop to allow the other vehicle to pass.
Should be Code advice drivers to stop, where the road is narrow, to allow safer passage for cyclists?
The injury rate for cyclists on rural roads is much higher than for car occupants. The more careful drivers probably already stop, is guidance needed via the HC?

User avatar
661-Pete
Posts: 7864
Joined: 22 Nov 2012, 8:45pm

Re: HC update - opening motor vehicle doors ...

Postby 661-Pete » 25 Oct 2018, 11:00pm

mjr wrote:
661-Pete wrote:I won't add anything to the "roulette" debate, but perhaps should point out that I'm often forced into the door zone because of an approaching vehicle. There's no way out of that one! If uncertain, my best move is to slow down to a speed at which I can stop in time if the worst happens...

There's a couple of ways out: you persuade them to stop between cars, or you stop between cars. It's your choice to squeeze by and accept the dooring risk. As I was taught: the moving cars might get out of your way, but the stopped ones definitely won't.

Between what cars? I'm talking about nose-to-tail parking along one side of the road.

Perhaps I need to support my account with a video. Then maybe you'll get the message...
Pete

Et qui rit des curés d'Oc?/De Meuse raines, houp! de cloques./De quelles loques ce turque coin./Et ne d'anes ni rennes,/Ecuries des curés d'Oc. - Louis d'Antin

User avatar
gaz
Posts: 13228
Joined: 9 Mar 2007, 12:09pm
Location: Kent, car park of England

Re: HC update - opening motor vehicle doors ...

Postby gaz » 26 Oct 2018, 12:06am

This is probably my most problematic "dooring" road. Staying out of the door zone often means trying to filter into a faster moving motor traffic flow. Sometimes there's a gap, not always. When I do manage to take the lane I am usually subjected to very intimidating driving from the MGIF brigade.