Nick Freeman Attacks "exceptional hardship"

fastpedaller
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Re: Nick Freeman Attacks "exceptional hardship"

Postby fastpedaller » 9 Apr 2019, 10:14pm

Bonefishblues wrote:
fastpedaller wrote:In my book these poor drivers should just get the bus or use a bike - If they need a car (and will suffer hardship without it) then they should drive correctly so there's no danger of losing their licence! Simple as that.

And the drivers who accrue points for any one of 2 or 3 dozen reasons unrelated to poor driving, would they be treated in the same way?

How can drivers accrue points that are unrelated to poor driving?

Bonefishblues
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Re: Nick Freeman Attacks "exceptional hardship"

Postby Bonefishblues » 9 Apr 2019, 10:31pm

fastpedaller wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:
fastpedaller wrote:In my book these poor drivers should just get the bus or use a bike - If they need a car (and will suffer hardship without it) then they should drive correctly so there's no danger of losing their licence! Simple as that.

And the drivers who accrue points for any one of 2 or 3 dozen reasons unrelated to poor driving, would they be treated in the same way?

How can drivers accrue points that are unrelated to poor driving?

https://www.gov.uk/penalty-points-endor ... lty-points

Take a look.

fastpedaller
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Joined: 10 Jul 2014, 1:12pm
Location: Norfolk

Re: Nick Freeman Attacks "exceptional hardship"

Postby fastpedaller » 9 Apr 2019, 11:17pm

Bonefishblues wrote:
fastpedaller wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:And the drivers who accrue points for any one of 2 or 3 dozen reasons unrelated to poor driving, would they be treated in the same way?

How can drivers accrue points that are unrelated to poor driving?

https://www.gov.uk/penalty-points-endor ... lty-points

Take a look.


Please point me to any of those offences which it's possible to say aren't going to create a danger - which have you been convicted of?

Bonefishblues
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Re: Nick Freeman Attacks "exceptional hardship"

Postby Bonefishblues » 9 Apr 2019, 11:25pm

fastpedaller wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:
fastpedaller wrote:How can drivers accrue points that are unrelated to poor driving?

https://www.gov.uk/penalty-points-endor ... lty-points

Take a look.


Please point me to any of those offences which it's possible to say aren't going to create a danger - which have you been convicted of?

You said poor drivers, apropos offences related to the practice of driving, hence my comment. I note the different definition you now introduce.

brynpoeth
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Re: Nick Freeman Attacks "exceptional hardship"

Postby brynpoeth » 10 Apr 2019, 5:29am

brynpoeth wrote:"exceptional hardship" is suffered by those who are killed or crippled by criminal drivers

and by those bereaved after someone dies in an "accident"
Entertainer, juvenile, curmudgeon
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fastpedaller
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Re: Nick Freeman Attacks "exceptional hardship"

Postby fastpedaller » 10 Apr 2019, 9:39am

Bonefishblues wrote:
fastpedaller wrote:


Please point me to any of those offences which it's possible to say aren't going to create a danger - which have you been convicted of?

You said poor drivers, apropos offences related to the practice of driving, hence my comment. I note the different definition you now introduce.

Surely poor driving is creating a danger to others or yourself and encompasses all the things they include, be they 'using mobile 'phone, poor vehicle maintenance etc - I can't see any in their list which aren't reasonable.

Bonefishblues
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Re: Nick Freeman Attacks "exceptional hardship"

Postby Bonefishblues » 10 Apr 2019, 9:51am

fastpedaller wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:
fastpedaller wrote:
Please point me to any of those offences which it's possible to say aren't going to create a danger - which have you been convicted of?

You said poor drivers, apropos offences related to the practice of driving, hence my comment. I note the different definition you now introduce.

Surely poor driving is creating a danger to others or yourself and encompasses all the things they include, be they 'using mobile 'phone, poor vehicle maintenance etc - I can't see any in their list which aren't reasonable.

OK, that's clarified your definition, which is wider than the act of driving, clearly.

fastpedaller
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Re: Nick Freeman Attacks "exceptional hardship"

Postby fastpedaller » 10 Apr 2019, 10:23am

Bonefishblues wrote:
fastpedaller wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:You said poor drivers, apropos offences related to the practice of driving, hence my comment. I note the different definition you now introduce.

Surely poor driving is creating a danger to others or yourself and encompasses all the things they include, be they 'using mobile 'phone, poor vehicle maintenance etc - I can't see any in their list which aren't reasonable.

OK, that's clarified your definition, which is wider than the act of driving, clearly.

Which do you consider aren't reasonably punishable by points?

Bonefishblues
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Re: Nick Freeman Attacks "exceptional hardship"

Postby Bonefishblues » 10 Apr 2019, 10:40am

fastpedaller wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:
fastpedaller wrote:Surely poor driving is creating a danger to others or yourself and encompasses all the things they include, be they 'using mobile 'phone, poor vehicle maintenance etc - I can't see any in their list which aren't reasonable.

OK, that's clarified your definition, which is wider than the act of driving, clearly.

Which do you consider aren't reasonably punishable by points?

That's clearly not what I said, if you read my posts.

thirdcrank
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Re: Nick Freeman Attacks "exceptional hardship"

Postby thirdcrank » 10 Apr 2019, 10:52am

Let's remember that there's a two-stage process here.

In addition to any other punishment, a conviction or fixed penalty for some "driving offences" normally attracts a licence endorsement. It's not completely automatic in that AIUI, the court may decide not to endorse the defendant's licence.

Then, there's "totting-up." We've moved on from Ernie Marple's original three-strikes-and-you're-out system to something more sophisticated, involving points graded to the perceived gravity of the offence. Endorsements have always had a limited duration, which again now varies according to the offence.

When discussing "exceptional hardship" the typical case is the person whose livelihood is said to depend on their driving licence. (I do know there have been plenty of other wheezes like the "celeb" whose brief successfully argued among other things that it would be "exceptional hardship" for his children to have to use public transport.)

Is there anything else employment-related where repeated offending over a relatively short period is considered acceptable? Is there any other punishment which is only not imposed when it might be most effective?

fastpedaller
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Location: Norfolk

Re: Nick Freeman Attacks "exceptional hardship"

Postby fastpedaller » 10 Apr 2019, 11:01am

Bonefishblues wrote:
fastpedaller wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:OK, that's clarified your definition, which is wider than the act of driving, clearly.

Which do you consider aren't reasonably punishable by points?

That's clearly not what I said, if you read my posts.


This is what you said:-
"And the drivers who accrue points for any one of 2 or 3 dozen reasons unrelated to poor driving, would they be treated in the same way?"

I can't see reasons unrelated to poor driving - maybe I'm dim, but to me having bald tyres etc can directly lead to bad driving (even if not intended)

Bonefishblues
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Re: Nick Freeman Attacks "exceptional hardship"

Postby Bonefishblues » 10 Apr 2019, 11:13am

I don't care that you hadn't appreciated that your eyesight had deteriorated incrementally, and that you hadn't noticed that your alignment was incorrect and had worn the inside of your tyre such that it was illegal, it's your responsibility and I am afraid that you must lose your right to drive, no appeal possible, even though your wife relies on you to take her for her palliative treatment, you'll just have to find another way. You did the crime and you must now do the time, to coin the phrase.

I think that there is a case for exceptional hardship as a defence, I do not think it is currently being applied well, but the answer isn't simply to say 12 points and you're out, universally.

I hope that makes my pov clear?

fastpedaller
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Re: Nick Freeman Attacks "exceptional hardship"

Postby fastpedaller » 10 Apr 2019, 11:49am

Bonefishblues wrote:I don't care that you hadn't appreciated that your eyesight had deteriorated incrementally, and that you hadn't noticed that your alignment was incorrect and had worn the inside of your tyre such that it was illegal, it's your responsibility and I am afraid that you must lose your right to drive, no appeal possible, even though your wife relies on you to take her for her palliative treatment, you'll just have to find another way. You did the crime and you must now do the time, to coin the phrase.

I think that there is a case for exceptional hardship as a defence, I do not think it is currently being applied well, but the answer isn't simply to say 12 points and you're out, universally.

I hope that makes my pov clear?


Crikey - word fail me!

Bonefishblues
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Location: Near Bicester Oxon

Re: Nick Freeman Attacks "exceptional hardship"

Postby Bonefishblues » 10 Apr 2019, 12:05pm

fastpedaller wrote:
Bonefishblues wrote:I don't care that you hadn't appreciated that your eyesight had deteriorated incrementally, and that you hadn't noticed that your alignment was incorrect and had worn the inside of your tyre such that it was illegal, it's your responsibility and I am afraid that you must lose your right to drive, no appeal possible, even though your wife relies on you to take her for her palliative treatment, you'll just have to find another way. You did the crime and you must now do the time, to coin the phrase.

I think that there is a case for exceptional hardship as a defence, I do not think it is currently being applied well, but the answer isn't simply to say 12 points and you're out, universally.

I hope that makes my pov clear?


Crikey - word fail me!

Why? Welcome to use multiple words if that might assist?

thirdcrank
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Joined: 9 Jan 2007, 2:44pm

Re: Nick Freeman Attacks "exceptional hardship"

Postby thirdcrank » 10 Apr 2019, 3:13pm

The list of offences attracting endorsement is here and I don't think it's oppressive.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/53/schedule/2

I think it's worth remembering that as the police investigate fewer crashes, so fewer people will be prosecuted as a result of crashes and that's self-reinforcing when it comes to the subjective definitions of careless and dangerous driving. Also, the introduction and increasing use of courses as an alternative to prosecution makes it that bit harder to qualify for totting-up. I can appreciate that some careful people are sometimes caught out by the complications of the law but three times within three years is in Lady Bracknell territory.

Punishments for offending tend to be unpleasant and something like loss of liberty a lot more so than the loss of the driving licence. IMO, anybody who needs to drive ie most of us - should think long term.