Law Commissions open consultation into new rules for UK’s self-driving future

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gaz
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Law Commissions open consultation into new rules for UK’s self-driving future

Postby gaz » 9 Nov 2018, 8:28am

Paving the way for AVs to behave just like monkey controlled vehicles ...
Should automated vehicles ever be allowed to mount the pavement?
Should automated vehicles ever be allowed to exceed the speed limit within tolerances?
Should automated vehicles ever be allowed to edge through pedestrians?

... and so on.
https://www.lawcom.gov.uk/law-commissio ... ng-future/

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squeaker
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Re: Law Commissions open consultation into new rules for UK’s self-driving future

Postby squeaker » 9 Nov 2018, 10:48am

gaz wrote:Paving the way for AVs to behave just like monkey controlled vehicles ...
Should automated vehicles ever be allowed to mount the pavement?
Should automated vehicles ever be allowed to exceed the speed limit within tolerances?
Should automated vehicles ever be allowed to edge through pedestrians?

... and so on.
https://www.lawcom.gov.uk/law-commissio ... ng-future/

You left out the prefix to those Qs:
For example, should an automated vehicle mount the pavement or cross a white line to let an emergency vehicle through, just like a human driver would in an emergency situation?

But I agree that, as a matter of principle, letting them mimic the monkey drivers would be a BAD IDEA :evil:
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kwackers
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Re: Law Commissions open consultation into new rules for UK’s self-driving future

Postby kwackers » 9 Nov 2018, 11:00am

squeaker wrote:But I agree that, as a matter of principle, letting them mimic the monkey drivers would be a BAD IDEA :evil:

I disagree, matters of principle are about principle and nothing to do with safety.

As you rightly pointed out context is everything and by definition a self driving car will be more aware of its environment thus better able to decide whether such a manoeuvre was sensible.

One of the problems with monkeys is their monkey brains.
I once saw a 4 car crash because some idiot came through the lights with his hand on the horn because his lights had just changed but there were still cars on the junction.
A car accelerating hard off the line, hand on horn panicked those on the junction with somewhat predictable results.

The same happens with emergency vehicles, if it is necessary to mount the pavement then doing it under duress is error prone at best.
In that respect a self driving car can perform a perfectly rational move, are there people on the pavement? Does it make sense to move onto it here or should I move further along - can I even get on the pavement further along?
Etc etc.

So in my opinion it all comes down to context.
Should self driving cars routinely be allowed for no good reason to break the rules? Obviously not.
Should self driving cars be allowed to break rules under certain conditions? Absolutely.

pete75
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Re: Law Commissions open consultation into new rules for UK’s self-driving future

Postby pete75 » 9 Nov 2018, 11:12am

gaz wrote:Paving the way for AVs to behave just like monkey controlled vehicles ...
Should automated vehicles ever be allowed to mount the pavement?
Should automated vehicles ever be allowed to exceed the speed limit within tolerances?
Should automated vehicles ever be allowed to edge through pedestrians?

... and so on.
https://www.lawcom.gov.uk/law-commissio ... ng-future/


I'm not PC or easily offended sort of chap but the sort of people who refer to their fellows as monkeys annoy me immensely.

kwackers
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Re: Law Commissions open consultation into new rules for UK’s self-driving future

Postby kwackers » 9 Nov 2018, 11:29am

pete75 wrote:I'm not PC or easily offended sort of chap but the sort of people who refer to their fellows as monkeys annoy me immensely.

We are monkeys (well technically we have the same ancestor which wasn't actually a monkey).

We share an awful lot of the same behaviour which sits deep inside the primitive parts of our brains - the monkey bit.
Perhaps you're different, perhaps unlike everyone else you apply a cool, calculated, logical approach to every muscle movement.

But then if referring to us as monkeys when referring to our decision making process annoys you that much - then perhaps not... :wink:

brynpoeth
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Re: Law Commissions open consultation into new rules for UK’s self-driving future

Postby brynpoeth » 9 Nov 2018, 11:38am

I think 'monkey' is appropriate, other words are available, see my vocab thread
..
Some monkeys are born hairless and grow hair later. Mummy monkey consoled her child: 'don't worry love, you look like a human now, but it will pass' :wink:
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
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meic
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Re: Law Commissions open consultation into new rules for UK’s self-driving future

Postby meic » 9 Nov 2018, 11:57am

Monkeys have tails, we are apes.
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thirdcrank
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Re: Law Commissions open consultation into new rules for UK’s self-driving future

Postby thirdcrank » 9 Nov 2018, 12:02pm

Let's not be diverted.

What's being discussed here is the legal regime for traffic in the future. It's sad IMO, that the Law Commission should have been brought in to legitimise the marketing of these vehicles. I think the big issue is that trend setters won't buy cars which disadvantage them in comparison with other road users: they won't want to buy submissive cars. In spite of what some may believe, I've no doubt that these vehicles could be programmed to be almost totally safe, but the vendors want them to be able to take risks.

This will mainly affect the transition period when there will still be driver-controlled vehicles, but there's little chance that total safety will eventually prevail. And look out for more vulnerable road users being marginalised.

brynpoeth
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Re: Law Commissions open consultation into new rules for UK’s self-driving future

Postby brynpoeth » 9 Nov 2018, 12:10pm

It is a big problem or opportunity, we can see it coming, could go either way

I try to identify parallels in the past but I cannae think of any, can anyone suggest some?

Monkeys identify with their vehicles, using them to break the law, what could they identify with in future?
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
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Cugel
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Re: Law Commissions open consultation into new rules for UK’s self-driving future

Postby Cugel » 9 Nov 2018, 1:07pm

thirdcrank wrote:Let's not be diverted.

What's being discussed here is the legal regime for traffic in the future. It's sad IMO, that the Law Commission should have been brought in to legitimise the marketing of these vehicles. I think the big issue is that trend setters won't buy cars which disadvantage them in comparison with other road users: they won't want to buy submissive cars. In spite of what some may believe, I've no doubt that these vehicles could be programmed to be almost totally safe, but the vendors want them to be able to take risks.

This will mainly affect the transition period when there will still be driver-controlled vehicles, but there's little chance that total safety will eventually prevail. And look out for more vulnerable road users being marginalised.


That's my feeling too.

Part of my suspicion of, and opposition to, separate cycling infrastructure is based on the possibility that, to ease the move to self-driving cars, "difficulties" should be got rid of. "Difficulties" will include cyclists and possibly pedestrians. Consider the USA where there are many locations that have no pavements as no one ever walks anywhere. Only the car may go forth.

Any cycling infrastructure will be inadequate in the extreme, going by the history of the stuff so far in this country. If we're also banned from roads so that self-driving cars can be more easily programmed, wither cycling as we know it?

Cugel

pete75
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Re: Law Commissions open consultation into new rules for UK’s self-driving future

Postby pete75 » 9 Nov 2018, 1:31pm

kwackers wrote:
pete75 wrote:I'm not PC or easily offended sort of chap but the sort of people who refer to their fellows as monkeys annoy me immensely.

We are monkeys (well technically we have the same ancestor which wasn't actually a monkey).

We share an awful lot of the same behaviour which sits deep inside the primitive parts of our brains - the monkey bit.
Perhaps you're different, perhaps unlike everyone else you apply a cool, calculated, logical approach to every muscle movement.

But then if referring to us as monkeys when referring to our decision making process annoys you that much - then perhaps not... :wink:


Technically we have the same ancestor as ever other mammal.

We're closer to apes than monkeys and no the two are not the same. Horses and Donkeys share much of the same behaviour but that does not make one the other. The same applies to humans and monkeys.

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meic
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Re: Law Commissions open consultation into new rules for UK’s self-driving future

Postby meic » 9 Nov 2018, 1:44pm

We're closer to apes

We ARE apes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hominidae
Yma o Hyd

kwackers
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Re: Law Commissions open consultation into new rules for UK’s self-driving future

Postby kwackers » 9 Nov 2018, 1:44pm

Cugel wrote:Part of my suspicion of, and opposition to, separate cycling infrastructure is based on the possibility that, to ease the move to self-driving cars, "difficulties" should be got rid of. "Difficulties" will include cyclists and possibly pedestrians. Consider the USA where there are many locations that have no pavements as no one ever walks anywhere. Only the car may go forth.

Any cycling infrastructure will be inadequate in the extreme, going by the history of the stuff so far in this country. If we're also banned from roads so that self-driving cars can be more easily programmed, wither cycling as we know it?

Cugel

Nah.

The hard bit of self driving cars is the "final mile". Driving between your house and the main A roads.
Bikes, peds, dogs, cats & hedgehogs are all things to be dealt with on that final mile, nobody will ever be able to remove them on the roads around your house.

But it turns out the final mile is easily the hardest problem to solve and the reason we wont (imo) see self driving cars any time soon* (other than specialist vehicles plying pre-defined routes).
If a car can drive itself the final mile there is absolutely no issue with it coexisting with cyclists or pedestrians on normal roads.

*Ten years I reckon, perhaps a few very expensive vehicles in five.
And by self driving I mean fully autonomous where the software never needs to hand over control to a driver, since handing over to a driver is an easy way to circumvent difficult problems.
Last edited by kwackers on 9 Nov 2018, 1:47pm, edited 1 time in total.

kwackers
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Re: Law Commissions open consultation into new rules for UK’s self-driving future

Postby kwackers » 9 Nov 2018, 1:45pm

meic wrote:Monkeys have tails, we are apes.

"Ape brains" doesn't cut it for me though.

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Re: Law Commissions open consultation into new rules for UK’s self-driving future

Postby Barks » 9 Nov 2018, 2:05pm

I think the big issue is that trend setters won't buy cars which disadvantage them in comparison with other road users: they won't want to buy submissive cars. In spite of what some may believe, I've no doubt that these vehicles could be programmed to be almost totally safe, but the vendors want them to be able to take risks.


I believe that the most likely early adopters of automated vehicles will be older people who have difficulty in meeting driving health criteria and those with mobility challenges who are not currently able to drive themselves. These groups are highly unlikely to be be wanting ‘more risky’ solutions and simply will want the ability to independently get out into the world to do things. I suggest the government would find it cost effective to subsidise AVs for anyone who voluntarily gives up a full driving licence or who cannot drive themselves on health grounds - by helping to maintain/extend independent living it would reduce the burden on NHS and Care Services