Law Commissions open consultation into new rules for UK’s self-driving future

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Cugel
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Re: Law Commissions open consultation into new rules for UK’s self-driving future

Postby Cugel » 9 Nov 2018, 5:10pm

kwackers wrote:Another thing I notice in the OP link is the idea of having an independent accident and safety branch responsible for investigating accidents involving self driving vehicles.

This I think would be an excellent idea.

The thing with self driving cars is that if a design fault (hardware or software) causes an accident then it applies to all cars of the same make/model.
If the investigation team saw fit they could 'ground' a particular make/model of car until the fixes had been applied.

This is very similar to how the CAA works and I think it would be a prime mover in making sure manufacturers were on the ball since nobody is going to want to be the one that sells cars that spend all their time refusing to move.

Hee hee - you have a charming faith in the power of technology as wrought and purveyed by greedy capitalist men to be always nice, well-behaved and without detrimental effects. Progress with a capital P, eh!?

History seems to tell a different story about technology and suggests that the many unforeseen consequences of such a vast change as self-driving cars may contain some consequences that are unpleasant. Moreover, in order to ensure their profits and "freedom" to make and sell what they want to, the manufacturers may well force changes in the law that are good for them but not for the rest of us. Consider the history of the car to date.

Cugel

pete75
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Re: Law Commissions open consultation into new rules for UK’s self-driving future

Postby pete75 » 9 Nov 2018, 5:40pm

kwackers wrote:
pete75 wrote:Who is testing them - the manufacturers? Test one you test them all - yes. The obverse is that if one commits a driving offence for which a human would be banned they all should be banned.

Sorry you're making yourself look a bit daft here.
I'll rephrase that for you.
If one human commits an offence for which they'd be banned than all humans should be banned.
(Or we could just fine the manufacturer...)


Hardly daft.
Each individual human is tested before getting a driving licence - as we vary quit a bit individually. Therefore when an individual human commits an offence he/she is banned.
As you say each model of self driving car is identical and only one needs to be tested. Therefore if one commits a bannable offence then all need to be banned. Two purposes no 1. find out what caused teh offence and don't let any back on the road until the problem is fixed. 2. Punishment - if lots of people can't use there car they'll be suing the supplier.

pete75
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Re: Law Commissions open consultation into new rules for UK’s self-driving future

Postby pete75 » 9 Nov 2018, 5:44pm

kwackers wrote:With that in mind it wouldn't surprise me if the outside lanes of some motorways became devoted to self driving vehicles and as numbers increase and the number of manual cars falls I could envisage a world where motorways eventually become self driving only and the manual driver (who presumably is now only driving for fun) is banned and forced onto A roads.


So we should become the servants of these machines and not their master being stopped from driving on motorways built with our money because it's better for them. No prizes for guessing which side you'd be on in the Terminator films.

kwackers wrote:
Money saved by automation is money reinvested into the economy, this isn't presumption but fact born out over the last few hundred years with no evidence that even recent events are changing it.


Money and wealth is becoming more and more concentrated in fewer and fewer hands. Do you really think that's going to change? Automation will be used to make more money for the already wealthy.

kwackers
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Re: Law Commissions open consultation into new rules for UK’s self-driving future

Postby kwackers » 9 Nov 2018, 6:23pm

Cugel wrote: Hee hee - you have a charming faith in the power of technology as wrought and purveyed by greedy capitalist men to be always nice, well-behaved and without detrimental effects. Progress with a capital P, eh!?

Not at all, history tells us that with the advent of the CAA aircraft became the safest way to travel - and as the old pilot saying goes, aircraft fly in spite of the pilot not because of them.
Cugel wrote:History seems to tell a different story about technology and suggests that the many unforeseen consequences of such a vast change as self-driving cars may contain some consequences that are unpleasant. Moreover, in order to ensure their profits and "freedom" to make and sell what they want to, the manufacturers may well force changes in the law that are good for them but not for the rest of us. Consider the history of the car to date.

The history of the car is the history of the consumer more than the history of the manufacturer. To a large extent manufacturers produce what the consumer wants, nobody makes stuff nobody wants.

With regards unforeseen consequences this is why I think an independent accident investigation department is a good thing, it's worked before and it'll work again. The rest like thirdcranks fears are unfounded simply because they make no sense, there simply isn't an advantage to be had.

I'm not so daft I don't think there could be other unintended consequences. My real hope for self driving cars is to make car ownership pointless and in that respect perhaps a consequence might be that for reasons I haven't thought of it has the opposite effect and the streets are full of empty cars simply following their owners around.

kwackers
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Re: Law Commissions open consultation into new rules for UK’s self-driving future

Postby kwackers » 9 Nov 2018, 6:31pm

pete75 wrote:Hardly daft.
Each individual human is tested before getting a driving licence - as we vary quit a bit individually. Therefore when an individual human commits an offence he/she is banned.
As you say each model of self driving car is identical and only one needs to be tested. Therefore if one commits a bannable offence then all need to be banned. Two purposes no 1. find out what caused teh offence and don't let any back on the road until the problem is fixed. 2. Punishment - if lots of people can't use there car they'll be suing the supplier.

Sorry it still makes no sense.
Your first point is covered by the idea of an accident investigation department, although that covers accidents rather than traffic offences.

As a human you'd have to try pretty hard to get banned for a traffic offence unless it was grossly bad at which point any self driving car found to be driving so bad would in fact warrant 'grounding' of the same makes and models.
What you've got to remember is we're talking about 'clones' driving using identical rule sets, if a particular model has a predisposition to lawlessness then it'll stick out like a sore thumb.

Ultimately the buck should stop at the manufacturer and unless the car is dangerous then why ban them?
Humans are fairly bad at driving. One million of us killed each year, hundreds of millions seriously injured. By our reckoning why on earth are we allowed to drive?

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Re: Law Commissions open consultation into new rules for UK’s self-driving future

Postby kwackers » 9 Nov 2018, 6:39pm

pete75 wrote:So we should become the servants of these machines and not their master being stopped from driving on motorways built with our money because it's better for them. No prizes for guessing which side you'd be on in the Terminator films.

No, you'd be stopped because its better for you. You're the passenger, they're quite happy sitting at the side of the road.

Around me are a number of major motorways. Hardly a day goes by without one or more of them blocked because some monkey brain can't drive.
Do I see it as a negative if we remove the monkey brains from the equation?
Not at all.

It's not a question of supporting "Terminators", it's a question utilisation of resources in the best possible way and if that means I can get from A to B consistently and reliably without having to sit in a queue because someone is incapable of basic road sense then I'm ready to tick the "yes, I think manual driving should be banned on motorways" box.

Cars are about transport, not about enjoying holding a steering wheel on a straight motorway.
pete75 wrote:Money and wealth is becoming more and more concentrated in fewer and fewer hands. Do you really think that's going to change? Automation will be used to make more money for the already wealthy.

That's a separate issue, but truth be told it's been happening for hundreds of years and automation hasn't helped in that respect.
But even allowing for that automation has still improved the lot of those at the bottom of the pile despite allowing those at the top to have even more.
Unfair? Yes. But the point still stands.

pete75
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Re: Law Commissions open consultation into new rules for UK’s self-driving future

Postby pete75 » 9 Nov 2018, 6:46pm

kwackers wrote:
pete75 wrote:Hardly daft.
Each individual human is tested before getting a driving licence - as we vary quit a bit individually. Therefore when an individual human commits an offence he/she is banned.
As you say each model of self driving car is identical and only one needs to be tested. Therefore if one commits a bannable offence then all need to be banned. Two purposes no 1. find out what caused teh offence and don't let any back on the road until the problem is fixed. 2. Punishment - if lots of people can't use there car they'll be suing the supplier.

Sorry it still makes no sense.
Your first point is covered by the idea of an accident investigation department, although that covers accidents rather than traffic offences.

As a human you'd have to try pretty hard to get banned for a traffic offence unless it was grossly bad at which point any self driving car found to be driving so bad would in fact warrant 'grounding' of the same makes and models.


That is exactly my point.

pete75
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Re: Law Commissions open consultation into new rules for UK’s self-driving future

Postby pete75 » 9 Nov 2018, 6:53pm

kwackers wrote:
pete75 wrote:So we should become the servants of these machines and not their master being stopped from driving on motorways built with our money because it's better for them. No prizes for guessing which side you'd be on in the Terminator films.

No, you'd be stopped because its better for you. You're the passenger, they're quite happy sitting at the side of the road.

Around me are a number of major motorways. Hardly a day goes by without one or more of them blocked because some monkey brain can't drive.
Do I see it as a negative if we remove the monkey brains from the equation?
Not at all.

It's not a question of supporting "Terminators", it's a question utilisation of resources in the best possible way and if that means I can get from A to B consistently and reliably without having to sit in a queue because someone is incapable of basic road sense then I'm ready to tick the "yes, I think manual driving should be banned on motorways" box.

Cars are about transport, not about enjoying holding a steering wheel on a straight motorway.


That's exactly what's happened in the Terminator movies - get rid of the "monkey brains" and replace them all with the machines you think are oh so superior.

BTW do you ever call your fellow humans a monkey to their face or just when you're in keyboard warrior mode.

pete75
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Re: Law Commissions open consultation into new rules for UK’s self-driving future

Postby pete75 » 9 Nov 2018, 7:02pm

pete75 wrote:
kwackers wrote:
pete75 wrote:So we should become the servants of these machines and not their master being stopped from driving on motorways built with our money because it's better for them. No prizes for guessing which side you'd be on in the Terminator films.

No, you'd be stopped because its better for you. You're the passenger, they're quite happy sitting at the side of the road.

Around me are a number of major motorways. Hardly a day goes by without one or more of them blocked because some monkey brain can't drive.
Do I see it as a negative if we remove the monkey brains from the equation?
Not at all.

It's not a question of supporting "Terminators", it's a question utilisation of resources in the best possible way and if that means I can get from A to B consistently and reliably without having to sit in a queue because someone is incapable of basic road sense then I'm ready to tick the "yes, I think manual driving should be banned on motorways" box.

Cars are about transport, not about enjoying holding a steering wheel on a straight motorway.


Who are you to decide what's better for me or anyone else?

That's exactly what's happened in the Terminator movies - get rid of the "monkey brains" and replace them all with the machines you think are oh so superior.

BTW do you ever call your fellow humans a monkey to their face or just when you're in keyboard warrior mode.

kwackers
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Re: Law Commissions open consultation into new rules for UK’s self-driving future

Postby kwackers » 9 Nov 2018, 7:03pm

pete75 wrote:That's exactly what's happened in the Terminator movies - get rid of the "monkey brains" and replace them all with the machines you think are oh so superior.

Err, the Terminator movies were about creating war machines.
In fact the reason they took over is because the technology worked brilliantly, not because it was a bit crap.
pete75 wrote:BTW do you ever call your fellow humans a monkey to their face or just when you're in keyboard warrior mode.

All the time. I'm sure you think I'm a keyboard warrior but no, I'm more than happy to say stuff like that to their faces - but tbh most of the people I speak to would agree with me, most folk realise that the majority of the automation inside their heads is primitive monkey think rather than considered reasoning.

Perhaps you don't really follow.
When folk are driving almost everything they do happens due to primitive processes inside their skull at a level that predates humanity.
You can call it the Neanderthal brain if you like (although Neanderthals weren't actually primitive and in fact had bigger brains), or we could scoot down the line to the first mammals but then calling it "first mammal" brain doesn't have a good ring to it plus we don't know what the first mammal was or even how it thought.

So imo Monkey brain is a good substitute that most folk understand - and its not just me, you'll find a whole host of popular science books that use similar references, memes and in fact more stuff than I could be bothered linking too.

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Re: Law Commissions open consultation into new rules for UK’s self-driving future

Postby kwackers » 9 Nov 2018, 7:05pm

pete75 wrote:Who are you to decide what's better for me or anyone else?

I don't. When and where did I do that?

Might come as a shock to you but I'm just presenting my opinion here, I have no powers that you don't have - even when I override my monkey brain with my giant intellect.

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Cugel
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Re: Law Commissions open consultation into new rules for UK’s self-driving future

Postby Cugel » 9 Nov 2018, 7:28pm

kwackers wrote:[The history of the car is the history of the consumer more than the history of the manufacturer. To a large extent manufacturers produce what the consumer wants, nobody makes stuff nobody wants.



Here we must recognise our very different perspectives of the same thing. Personally I see lots of evidence that manufacturers manipulate consumers to want what they make (it's called advertising) rather than the other way 'round.

But in either case, whoever demands and brings about these damaging technologies, they do get brought about. Why do you think that self-driving cars or any other new individual transport technology (the BBC's Horizon is promising flying cars once more) will somehow be immune from the lethal traditions of the human-driven oil-fired car, where, "Do what thou want or what thou canst get away with (plenty)" seems to be the whole of the law?

Ah, you think that safety will be improved by new regulators such as those in the aero sphere. Alas, regulators are on the kill-list of every neo-lib manufacturer and their tame politicians. I fear it'll be much of the same as with oil-fired cars or even worse. It certainly seems a distinct possibility that the current anti-cycling zeitgeist will be ramped up more and more until we are forbidden, banned or shunted off to 500 miles of defunt railway line with a bit of gravel tossed on it, so that self-driving cars will be able to do what they want.

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Re: Law Commissions open consultation into new rules for UK’s self-driving future

Postby thirdcrank » 9 Nov 2018, 8:58pm

.... My real hope for self driving cars is to make car ownership pointless ....



One of my points is that the marketing people will work to avoid that, by ensuring they remain an attractive means of personal transport.

fastpedaller
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Re: Law Commissions open consultation into new rules for UK’s self-driving future

Postby fastpedaller » 9 Nov 2018, 9:03pm

pete75 wrote: As you say each model of self driving car is identical and only one needs to be tested. Therefore if one commits a bannable offence then all need to be banned. Two purposes no 1. find out what caused teh offence and don't let any back on the road until the problem is fixed. 2. Punishment - if lots of people can't use there car they'll be suing the supplier.


Hmm - but will it happen. For some time it has been known that a particular brand of tumble dryer has been a huge fire risk, yet (as far as I've seen) the manufacturer has done (or been forced to do) very little about it.

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Re: Law Commissions open consultation into new rules for UK’s self-driving future

Postby pete75 » 9 Nov 2018, 10:07pm

fastpedaller wrote:
pete75 wrote: As you say each model of self driving car is identical and only one needs to be tested. Therefore if one commits a bannable offence then all need to be banned. Two purposes no 1. find out what caused teh offence and don't let any back on the road until the problem is fixed. 2. Punishment - if lots of people can't use there car they'll be suing the supplier.


Hmm - but will it happen. For some time it has been known that a particular brand of tumble dryer has been a huge fire risk, yet (as far as I've seen) the manufacturer has done (or been forced to do) very little about it.


A good point.