Law Commissions open consultation into new rules for UK’s self-driving future

brynpoeth
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Re: Law Commissions open consultation into new rules for UK’s self-driving future

Postby brynpoeth » 11 Nov 2018, 10:40am

It would drive quite differently from human drivers, it would obey the law :wink:

I find he thought of electric vehicles following close on the motorway a bit scary :?

Problem is, monkey-brain drivers and automatic vehicles will mix for many many years
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love the three Es: enforcement, enforcement & enforcement

kwackers
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Re: Law Commissions open consultation into new rules for UK’s self-driving future

Postby kwackers » 11 Nov 2018, 10:42am

thirdcrank wrote:I still have difficulty with the idea that human drivers are terrible so when we introduce something that has the potential to be better we try to ensure it can emulate human drivers.

And it's at this point I bang my head on the desk...

It's not emulating human drivers. If it was it'd be on the phone to its mate, or playing with the sat nav (or the huge touch screen that passes for info-centres these days) or speeding or rljing or doing dodgy overtakes whilst keeping its fingers crossed.

It's better because it won't be emulating human drivers.

But, there are times when human drivers technically break the law. If you're sat at a red light and you see in your rear view mirror an emergency vehicle most drivers will pull forward of the stop line and pull over. Yet there's nothing in the highway code that explicitly allows that, in fact rule 219 says "while complying with all traffic signs".
So most people would technically break the law so should the vehicle emulate them or not? (More likely the law actually needs rewriting to be more specific).

It's all these edge cases that need to be considered. Do you really want self driving cars to sit patiently at a red light whilst you're queuing behind them in an ambulance clutching your chest?

kwackers
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Re: Law Commissions open consultation into new rules for UK’s self-driving future

Postby kwackers » 11 Nov 2018, 10:47am

brynpoeth wrote:I find he thought of electric vehicles following close on the motorway a bit scary :?

They won't follow you in a manual vehicle - you're unpredictable plus you can't tell the car behind what you're going to do.
But following each other - why not? As soon as the front car brakes they all brake at the same instant so it's perfectly safe.

I'm sure for us older generations sitting 10 feet behind the car in front at 70mph will seem scary, but the youngsters who'll benefit from this tech will probably not give it a thought if for no other reason than they'll have their heads buried in their phones.

Me personally, I'm also hoping for windows that black out so I can get some kip.
Last edited by kwackers on 11 Nov 2018, 8:45pm, edited 1 time in total.

brynpoeth
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Re: Law Commissions open consultation into new rules for UK’s self-driving future

Postby brynpoeth » 11 Nov 2018, 10:49am

Maybe the PiC ("driver" or "passenger"?) could be responsible and take over when it were necessary to break the law
But then they would have to be ready, could not sleep during the journey etc
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love the three Es: enforcement, enforcement & enforcement

thirdcrank
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Re: Law Commissions open consultation into new rules for UK’s self-driving future

Postby thirdcrank » 11 Nov 2018, 10:52am

Rule 219 was only changed fairly recently and AFAIK it was to make it clear - in the age of camera enforcement - that ignoring traffic lights was a no-no in any circumstances. The (emotive) case against that rule applies to any vehicle. Perhaps it might be said that the HC is a counsel of perfection and the introduction of driverless cars is exposing it as nonsense, as many already argue.

kwackers
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Re: Law Commissions open consultation into new rules for UK’s self-driving future

Postby kwackers » 11 Nov 2018, 11:09am

thirdcrank wrote:Rule 219 was only changed fairly recently and AFAIK it was to make it clear - in the age of camera enforcement - that ignoring traffic lights was a no-no in any circumstances. The (emotive) case against that rule applies to any vehicle. Perhaps it might be said that the HC is a counsel of perfection and the introduction of driverless cars is exposing it as nonsense, as many already argue.

I remember a case on the motorcycle forums some years ago.

A guy sitting at a red light on his bike suddenly was aware of a car bearing down on him at speed having seen neither him nor the red light.
The junction was empty and so he shot across it.

Unfortunately there was a red light camera so he got a fixed penalty notice, but then fortunately the red light camera also picked up the following vehicle which ended up stopping ahead of the stop line.

His fine was cancelled on appeal but it does demonstrate that "in any circumstances" isn't always valid although having to appeal to get it overturned is imo a good compromise.
Last edited by kwackers on 11 Nov 2018, 2:39pm, edited 1 time in total.

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RickH
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Re: Law Commissions open consultation into new rules for UK’s self-driving future

Postby RickH » 11 Nov 2018, 2:38pm

kwackers wrote:There are 28,000 hit and runs reported each year.
Let that sink in. Twenty eight thousand...

I don't want to miminise any death & injury but what is the source for that figure? I'm having difficulty finding anything from a search (which could just be a problem with my searching).

Also, is that 28,000 purely death & injury incidents or does it include other things, such as hitting another car or someone's property & then driving off?

kwackers
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Re: Law Commissions open consultation into new rules for UK’s self-driving future

Postby kwackers » 11 Nov 2018, 2:44pm

RickH wrote:
kwackers wrote:There are 28,000 hit and runs reported each year.
Let that sink in. Twenty eight thousand...

I don't want to miminise any death & injury but what is the source for that figure? I'm having difficulty finding anything from a search (which could just be a problem with my searching).

Also, is that 28,000 purely death & injury incidents or does it include other things, such as hitting another car or someone's property & then driving off?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45982620

I would imagine it's both personal and property damage combined (I can't find any breakdown).

But as mentioned above it's likely the number is low.
I know when I was knocked off on a roundabout the driver simply drove off and without a registration (the following driver stopped but didn't get one either) there was little point in reporting it.

thirdcrank
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Re: Law Commissions open consultation into new rules for UK’s self-driving future

Postby thirdcrank » 11 Nov 2018, 2:44pm

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=125978

I'm not sure of the relevance of hit-and-run in this context, unless it's to show what we knew already: some people are naughty.

kwackers
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Re: Law Commissions open consultation into new rules for UK’s self-driving future

Postby kwackers » 11 Nov 2018, 2:54pm

thirdcrank wrote:I'm not sure of the relevance of hit-and-run in this context, unless it's to show what we knew already: some people are naughty.

I would have thought that was exactly the relevance.
Soon we won't need to put up with naughty people driving... ;)

When I read the local rag and there's mention of a serious accident involving injury I tend to make a mental note of how many are hit and run. And overall it seems that in almost half of them the driver simply leaves the scene - and this is particularly the case if pedestrians or cyclists are involved.

One of the reasons I switched to using cameras was after a cyclist was killed near me cycling along a road I use all the time. Perfectly straight, wide road with good sight lines and no junctions.

The guy ran him over and left the scene. The next day he took his vehicle to a garage and claimed he'd hit a bin. It was only some weeks later when the police made an appeal and the garage owner saw it that he put two and two together and called the police.
By then of course the car had been repaired and he denied all knowledge. He was only caught in the end because another witness was able to place him near the scene despite him claiming he hadn't used the car.

In the end justice was served but at that point I figured I wasn't going to leave my family in a position where they probably know who's responsible but can't prove it.

pete75
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Re: Law Commissions open consultation into new rules for UK’s self-driving future

Postby pete75 » 11 Nov 2018, 3:45pm

I was knocked off my bike by a hit and run driver in 2005 or rather two - one clipped me and I fell off and the following ran over my feet and ankles. It was a bit painful at the time but I quite enjoyed the three months off work that followed.
After 11 at night so my guess is they were drunk, racing each other so didn't want to to do anything that might lead to police involvement.

Airsporter1st
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Re: Law Commissions open consultation into new rules for UK’s self-driving future

Postby Airsporter1st » 11 Nov 2018, 4:43pm

I saw similar lively debate and discussion on the subject of the mainstream introduction of hybrid and elctric cars on another forum around 3 years ago. It is quite staggering to see the pace with which they and the associated technology have developed. I would not be surprised to see a similar acceleration in the development and adoption of self-driving cars.

I subscribe to the view that in time they will make our roads safer, particularly for pedestrians and cyclists.

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craigbroadbent
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Re: Law Commissions open consultation into new rules for UK’s self-driving future

Postby craigbroadbent » 13 Nov 2018, 11:16am

Cra less drivers not driverless cars.