Bath final day Air pollution consulation

whoof
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Bath final day Air pollution consulation

Postby whoof » 26 Nov 2018, 12:40pm

There a consultation on proposed measures to tackle air pollution in Bath (the city not your tub).
This closes today if you wish to make a comment.
http://www.bathnes.gov.uk/bath-breathes-2021-overview

Jon Lucas
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Joined: 6 Mar 2009, 6:02pm

Re: Bath final day Air pollution consulation

Postby Jon Lucas » 26 Nov 2018, 6:32pm

Yes, it closes at 11.59pm to be precise. The consultation is on a Clean Air zone proposal to tackle just one pollutant, NOx, and Bath is 1 of 28 cities that are having to propose measures to deal with this due to EU pressure on the UK government. I live in Bath and have responded to the consultation. It is proposing a £9 charge for vehicles driving into or out of the zone that do not meet the necessary Euro standards for emissions. Given that it is a charge for what drivers have always had for free, it is hardly surprising that there has been much uproar and opposition, as can be seen in today's Guardian article. Although there are issues with the proposals that many residents have raised, in general they need support to establish the principle that the polluter pays.

pwa
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Re: Bath final day Air pollution consulation

Postby pwa » 28 Nov 2018, 7:59am

Presumably the charge would apply to my own car going to the car park beside the Hilton, which I used recently. My wife and I stayed at the hotel for a couple of nights and parked the car in that car park. The car stayed there, unused, until we left. I wonder what we would have done if there had been a hefty charge for crossing a line.

But looking at it more widely, Bath is often congested. I guess they won't be aiming charges at through routes that have no real alternatives, such as the A36. If they did that would displace traffic to other places.

I like the Park and Ride service in Bath. It is already easier than city centre parking for a simple day visit. For our multi-day visit the issue was whether the P&R car park, in a remote location, was a place we could leave our car. Would it have been allowed for such a long period, and would the car have been secure overnight? But for those concerns we would have preferred to have left the car there, not bringing it into town at all.

Edit.
It does include traffic attempting to get through via the A46 / A36, a journey I used to take to get from the M4 to Frome. So where will that push traffic going that way? It is an awful road, so I agree there is a problem. I know bypasses are not always popular but it amazes me that cars still have to go so far into Bath just to get through, when not actually wanting to visit the city itself.

Barks
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Re: Bath final day Air pollution consulation

Postby Barks » 28 Nov 2018, 7:42pm

John Lucas wrote:
Given that it is a charge for what drivers have always had for free, it is hardly surprising that there has been much uproar and opposition, as can be seen in today's Guardian article.


That is true but they have also been polluting the environment, killing and seriously injuring thousands of people annually and vehicle tax and fuel duty doesn’t go any anywhere near offsetting these ‘health and social’ and the massive investment and maintence costs of roads. It’s about time all car drivers were properly held fully financially accountable for their choice of personal transport. In the shorter term I struggle to see why road pricing cannot replace fuel duty in total with local authorities setting the rates for the most congested and polluted routes in towns and cities based upon local priorities and central government doing same for trunk and motorway network. Well done Bath, I wish we could have similar political proactive ness in my area.

brynpoeth
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Re: Bath final day Air pollution consulation

Postby brynpoeth » 28 Nov 2018, 8:14pm

Fortunately Bath Spa station has excellent frequent fast services
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love the three Es: enforcement, enforcement & enforcement

whoof
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Re: Bath final day Air pollution consulation

Postby whoof » 28 Nov 2018, 8:53pm

I travel through Bath every day to get to work. I've driven twice this year. If I had to pay £9 then I would have got the bus and wouldn't have driven which is the point of scheme.

pwa
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Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Bath final day Air pollution consulation

Postby pwa » 28 Nov 2018, 9:04pm

whoof wrote:I travel through Bath every day to get to work. I've driven twice this year. If I had to pay £9 then I would have got the bus and wouldn't have driven which is the point of scheme.

I understand the desire to reduce traffic in Bath. It is excessive. I think that every time I go there. But if I were driving from South Wales to Frome to visit relatives, as I used to a couple of times a year, how would I get from the M4 to Frome without briefly entering the zone and having to pay £9 for entering the city when all i would really want to do is get past bath to my destination on the other side? A46 / A36. Bath just gets in the way when you want to make that journey. Is there still a toll bridge alternative like there used to be? Ah yes:

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4018433 ... 6?hl=en-GB
Imagine the queues! :lol:
£9 or 20p.

whoof
Posts: 1578
Joined: 29 Apr 2014, 2:13pm

Re: Bath final day Air pollution consulation

Postby whoof » 28 Nov 2018, 9:23pm

pwa wrote:
whoof wrote:I travel through Bath every day to get to work. I've driven twice this year. If I had to pay £9 then I would have got the bus and wouldn't have driven which is the point of scheme.

I understand the desire to reduce traffic in Bath. It is excessive. I think that every time I go there. But if I were driving from South Wales to Frome to visit relatives, as I used to a couple of times a year, how would I get from the M4 to Frome without briefly entering the zone and having to pay £9 for entering the city when all i would really want to do is get past bath to my destination on the other side? A46 / A36. Bath just gets in the way when you want to make that journey. Is there still a toll bridge alternative like there used to be? Ah yes:

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4018433 ... 6?hl=en-GB
Imagine the queues! :lol:

Frome has a train station and there are many stations in South Wales. If you didn't want to go by train you could drive through Bath but it would cost you £9.
I work with many people who drive through Bath every day all of whom have alternatives but chose the easiest option which at the moment is driving. If they had to pay £9 everyday the majority would walk, cycle or take public transport.

pwa
Posts: 9000
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Bath final day Air pollution consulation

Postby pwa » 28 Nov 2018, 9:32pm

whoof wrote:
pwa wrote:
whoof wrote:I travel through Bath every day to get to work. I've driven twice this year. If I had to pay £9 then I would have got the bus and wouldn't have driven which is the point of scheme.

I understand the desire to reduce traffic in Bath. It is excessive. I think that every time I go there. But if I were driving from South Wales to Frome to visit relatives, as I used to a couple of times a year, how would I get from the M4 to Frome without briefly entering the zone and having to pay £9 for entering the city when all i would really want to do is get past bath to my destination on the other side? A46 / A36. Bath just gets in the way when you want to make that journey. Is there still a toll bridge alternative like there used to be? Ah yes:

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4018433 ... 6?hl=en-GB
Imagine the queues! :lol:

Frome has a train station and there are many stations in South Wales. If you didn't want to go by train you could drive through Bath but it would cost you £9.
I work with many people who drive through Bath every day all of whom have alternatives but chose the easiest option which at the moment is driving. If they had to pay £9 everyday the majority would walk, cycle or take public transport.

Or go via Batheaston or Chippenham. My own infrequent journey on that route was with a full car, two adults, two kids, overnight luggage, presents. I can't believe the A46/36 junction will be included in the zone. It is an important node for the regional road network, including people who have no intention of stopping in the city. Isn't it about time the nettle was grasped and a relatively short bypass made to link the A46 and A36 near Batheaston, removing the need for vehicles to go anywhere near Bath itself. Nobody wants to be in the tedious queue down London Road anyway.

whoof
Posts: 1578
Joined: 29 Apr 2014, 2:13pm

Re: Bath final day Air pollution consulation

Postby whoof » 28 Nov 2018, 10:12pm

pwa wrote:
whoof wrote:
pwa wrote:I understand the desire to reduce traffic in Bath. It is excessive. I think that every time I go there. But if I were driving from South Wales to Frome to visit relatives, as I used to a couple of times a year, how would I get from the M4 to Frome without briefly entering the zone and having to pay £9 for entering the city when all i would really want to do is get past bath to my destination on the other side? A46 / A36. Bath just gets in the way when you want to make that journey. Is there still a toll bridge alternative like there used to be? Ah yes:

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4018433 ... 6?hl=en-GB
Imagine the queues! :lol:

Frome has a train station and there are many stations in South Wales. If you didn't want to go by train you could drive through Bath but it would cost you £9.
I work with many people who drive through Bath every day all of whom have alternatives but chose the easiest option which at the moment is driving. If they had to pay £9 everyday the majority would walk, cycle or take public transport.

Or go via Batheaston or Chippenham. My own infrequent journey on that route was with a full car, two adults, two kids, overnight luggage, presents. I can't believe the A46/36 junction will be included in the zone. It is an important node for the regional road network, including people who have no intention of stopping in the city. Isn't it about time the nettle was grasped and a relatively short bypass made to link the A46 and A36 near Batheaston, removing the need for vehicles to go anywhere near Bath itself. Nobody wants to be in the tedious queue down London Road anyway.

I fail to see what adults, children, luggage and presents has to do with travelling on a train. None of these are banned from the rail network.
Your grasping the nettle requires compulsory purchase of someone else's home and building a road through green belt.

brynpoeth
Posts: 9036
Joined: 30 Nov 2013, 11:26am

Re: Bath final day Air pollution consulation

Postby brynpoeth » 28 Nov 2018, 10:27pm

No new roads!
No new roads!
No new roads!
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love the three Es: enforcement, enforcement & enforcement

pwa
Posts: 9000
Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Bath final day Air pollution consulation

Postby pwa » 29 Nov 2018, 8:20am

whoof wrote:
pwa wrote:
whoof wrote:Frome has a train station and there are many stations in South Wales. If you didn't want to go by train you could drive through Bath but it would cost you £9.
I work with many people who drive through Bath every day all of whom have alternatives but chose the easiest option which at the moment is driving. If they had to pay £9 everyday the majority would walk, cycle or take public transport.

Or go via Batheaston or Chippenham. My own infrequent journey on that route was with a full car, two adults, two kids, overnight luggage, presents. I can't believe the A46/36 junction will be included in the zone. It is an important node for the regional road network, including people who have no intention of stopping in the city. Isn't it about time the nettle was grasped and a relatively short bypass made to link the A46 and A36 near Batheaston, removing the need for vehicles to go anywhere near Bath itself. Nobody wants to be in the tedious queue down London Road anyway.

I fail to see what adults, children, luggage and presents has to do with travelling on a train. None of these are banned from the rail network.
Your grasping the nettle requires compulsory purchase of someone else's home and building a road through green belt.

No it doesn't. Traffic wanting to go from the A46 to the A36 could be going away from Bath rather than into Bath if a road link were made between the A363 south of Bathford (Bradford Rd) and A36 across open fields with no homes nearby. It would be very expensive with a lot of engineering required close the the A36 in particular (on a hillside) and crossing the river, canal and railway, but taking a good chunk of traffic away from Bath would make it worth it. There is no way in the world I would have taken my family and all our baggage on a convoluted rail journey to visit relations, spending a load of money and ending up unable to visit places when we got there. But I most certainly didn't want to go through Bath to get to Frome.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.387982, ... 6?hl=en-GB Possible place to link the A363 and A36

whoof
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Joined: 29 Apr 2014, 2:13pm

Re: Bath final day Air pollution consulation

Postby whoof » 29 Nov 2018, 11:49am

pwa wrote:
whoof wrote:
pwa wrote:Or go via Batheaston or Chippenham. My own infrequent journey on that route was with a full car, two adults, two kids, overnight luggage, presents. I can't believe the A46/36 junction will be included in the zone. It is an important node for the regional road network, including people who have no intention of stopping in the city. Isn't it about time the nettle was grasped and a relatively short bypass made to link the A46 and A36 near Batheaston, removing the need for vehicles to go anywhere near Bath itself. Nobody wants to be in the tedious queue down London Road anyway.

I fail to see what adults, children, luggage and presents has to do with travelling on a train. None of these are banned from the rail network.
Your grasping the nettle requires compulsory purchase of someone else's home and building a road through green belt.

No it doesn't. Traffic wanting to go from the A46 to the A36 could be going away from Bath rather than into Bath if a road link were made between the A363 south of Bathford (Bradford Rd) and A36 across open fields with no homes nearby. It would be very expensive with a lot of engineering required close the the A36 in particular (on a hillside) and crossing the river, canal and railway, but taking a good chunk of traffic away from Bath would make it worth it. There is no way in the world I would have taken my family and all our baggage on a convoluted rail journey to visit relations, spending a load of money and ending up unable to visit places when we got there. But I most certainly didn't want to go through Bath to get to Frome.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.387982, ... 6?hl=en-GB Possible place to link the A363 and A36


Building a by-pass would be very expensive and in the long term would not help to reduce the amount of traffic flow through Bath. Traffic has the tendency to fill the capacity available to it. Years ago to get from Taunton to Gloucester you would go through Bristol on the A38. The M5 was built by-passing the A38 to the West, the A4174 was built by-passing Bristol to the East and the M32 was built to enable traffic to go from the M4/M5 into the centre of Bristol without going down the A38. The result of all of this on traffic volumes; the M5 past Bristol, the A4174 and the M32 all have extremely high traffic flow and are often congested. The A38 now have as much traffic if not more on it than it did before these three roads were built.

https://www.wired.com/2014/06/wuwt-traf ... ed-demand/

For sixty years we have been buidling more roads, widening road and building by-passes and it does not work. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a differnent result is madness.

If you don't want to spend money and make an effort to visit your family then send them a Christmas card.

brynpoeth
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Re: Bath final day Air pollution consulation

Postby brynpoeth » 29 Nov 2018, 11:58am

The new bypass would destroy 'only' fields, is that less bad than destroying homes? Of course it would make driving even more attractive
Soon the toll on the bridge into Wales is to be abolished, that will make it even worse

Shall This Madness never end?
Cycling-of course, but it is far better on a Gillott
We love the three Es: enforcement, enforcement & enforcement

pwa
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Joined: 2 Oct 2011, 8:55pm

Re: Bath final day Air pollution consulation

Postby pwa » 29 Nov 2018, 12:14pm

I don't drive to Frome anymore because the relations have moved. But if there had been a charge for going down London Road to get to the Frome road I would have simply diverted, to the Batheaston toll road or a much longer route through Chippenham. You can just send your relations a card if you like but when my kids were small they enjoyed spending a few days with cousins, once or twice a year, and we wanted the car to get to places they might enjoy. Wookey Hole caves, Longleat or wherever.

This is not an either/or situation. In my ideal scenario there would be an alternative route for through traffic not wanting to go into Bath at all, and a clean air zone in central Bath. When I do actually want to go to Bath for the day, which I often do, I tend to use the Park and Ride. That works nicely for day visitors.