Why we shouldn't be too eager to campaign for segregated cycling facilities

Bmblbzzz
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Re: Why we shouldn't be too eager to campaign for segregated cycling facilities

Postby Bmblbzzz » 21 Dec 2018, 6:30pm

Sure I can see why you thought that.

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Re: Why we shouldn't be too eager to campaign for segregated cycling facilities

Postby MikeF » 21 Dec 2018, 10:52pm

Pete Owens wrote:When it comes to segregation I'm with Rosa Parks.

The only purpose of it is to keep us prevent us from causing as much as a seconds delay to the all important people in motors - at the expense of our safety and convenience.
Not necessarily - it depends on circumstances and design. Sometimes it's the reverse. :D
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Re: Why we shouldn't be too eager to campaign for segregated cycling facilities

Postby ian s » 2 Jan 2019, 8:08pm

Had an interesting discussion with a local cycling group at a local event last summer. They want cycle paths etc. I told them that I want less cycle paths; what I want is space and respect on the roads, because, being realistic, there will never be cycle paths beside/in parallel with all roads.

They weren't happy that a cyclist didn't agree with their blinkered attitude

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Re: Why we shouldn't be too eager to campaign for segregated cycling facilities

Postby amaferanga » 2 Jan 2019, 8:31pm

ian s wrote:Had an interesting discussion with a local cycling group at a local event last summer. They want cycle paths etc. I told them that I want less cycle paths; what I want is space and respect on the roads, because, being realistic, there will never be cycle paths beside/in parallel with all roads.

They weren't happy that a cyclist didn't agree with their blinkered attitude


Do you think there will be enough "space and respect" on city roads any time soon to enable children to cycle? If so, how can/will this happen? How much space and respect is needed for a parent to allow their children to cycle to school?

Countries with a well established cycling culture have something very significant in common and that's a joined up network of safe and convenient cycle lanes. These aren't cycle lanes like the crap that the UK normally build though.

I used to be against protected cycle lanes because "real" cyclists don't need them. But what's urgently needed in the UK is to get large numbers of people riding bikes and I don't think that's possible without building the safe infrastructure. That means segregated lanes, filtered streets and protection through busy junctions (not chucking cyclists out into fast traffic as soon as the space is needed for car lanes which is the UK way). Hopefully Greater Manchester will soon be an example of what's possible.

Of course in rural areas this sort of infrastructure probably isn't necessary. I grew up in a small town in the Scottish Borders where cycling on most roads in the town is still pretty safe and there's a network of quiet roads through the whole of the Borders. Where I live now (a comparable sized town in Greater Manchester) there's hardly a road I'd call safe - every road that goes anywhere is a rat run. Very few people cycle - those that do are mostly "brave" young men. It's sad that just to ride a bike around here you have to be brave.

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The utility cyclist
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Re: Why we shouldn't be too eager to campaign for segregated cycling facilities

Postby The utility cyclist » 3 Jan 2019, 12:38am

ian s wrote:Had an interesting discussion with a local cycling group at a local event last summer. They want cycle paths etc. I told them that I want less cycle paths; what I want is space and respect on the roads, because, being realistic, there will never be cycle paths beside/in parallel with all roads.

They weren't happy that a cyclist didn't agree with their blinkered attitude

couldn't agree more. Segregation not the best solution for reasons I mentioned on p1

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Re: Why we shouldn't be too eager to campaign for segregated cycling facilities

Postby mjr » 3 Jan 2019, 9:09am

The utility cyclist wrote:
ian s wrote:Had an interesting discussion with a local cycling group at a local event last summer. They want cycle paths etc. I told them that I want less cycle paths; what I want is space and respect on the roads, because, being realistic, there will never be cycle paths beside/in parallel with all roads.

They weren't happy that a cyclist didn't agree with their blinkered attitude

couldn't agree more. Segregation not the best solution for reasons I mentioned on p1

What, reasons like posting a picture of Danish cycleways and saying it doesn't show cycleways, then refusing to say where it is? That's not persuasive.

I don't agree that it's realistic to continue the failed policy of merely wishing for motorists to cooperate. We probably need a mix of high profile enforcement and protected infrastructure. We won't get cycleways alongside all roads, but along most fast major roads is achievable and much cheaper than things like HS2.
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Re: Why we shouldn't be too eager to campaign for segregated cycling facilities

Postby pwa » 3 Jan 2019, 10:17am

I can see how having a path beside a road, but separated from it by a kerb or something, is reassuring, but in practice such paths are covered in gravel and broken glass, and don't get gritted in icy weather. Whereas a cycle lane segregated from the rest of the road only by paint is maintained as if it were road. I use the latter (if it is wide enough) but not the former.

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Re: Why we shouldn't be too eager to campaign for segregated cycling facilities

Postby reohn2 » 3 Jan 2019, 10:47am

pwa wrote:I can see how having a path beside a road, but separated from it by a kerb or something, is reassuring, but in practice such paths are covered in gravel and broken glass, and don't get gritted in icy weather.

Because the UK doesn't give a monkey's for maintenance or standards of cycle infrastructure.
Whereas a cycle lane segregated from the rest of the road only by paint is maintained as if it were road.

Not IME.

I use the latter (if it is wide enough) but not the former.

I will use cycle paths and cyclce lanes only if they're clean and work for me as a cyclist.The UK approach to cycling infrastructure is halfhearted at best and diabolical at worst IME.
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Wanlock Dod
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Re: Why we shouldn't be too eager to campaign for segregated cycling facilities

Postby Wanlock Dod » 3 Jan 2019, 10:54am

mjr wrote:I don't agree that it's realistic to continue the failed policy of merely wishing for motorists to cooperate.

This. However nice it might sound there doesn't seem to be any evidence of sharing the roads being an effective way to facilitate cycling.

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Re: Why we shouldn't be too eager to campaign for segregated cycling facilities

Postby reohn2 » 3 Jan 2019, 11:05am

Wanlock Dod wrote:
mjr wrote:I don't agree that it's realistic to continue the failed policy of merely wishing for motorists to cooperate.

This. However nice it might sound there doesn't seem to be any evidence of sharing the roads being an effective way to facilitate cycling.

It's what happens in an unequal society which is played on on the roads,where might so very often is right and the mighty almost always win due a totally ineffective police force,and a loaded court system in favour of the car driver.
This is a recent example of a total lack of justice :- https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-m ... r-46735567
With that kind of punishment what chance cycling in the UK?
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Re: Why we shouldn't be too eager to campaign for segregated cycling facilities

Postby Vorpal » 3 Jan 2019, 11:59am

Many people posting on this thread sound as if we either campaign for segregation everywhere, or not at all.

To me, it's not an either/or question. It's a matter of creating a good environment for vulnerable users.

In some places that means segregation. In some place that means sharing, but limiting permeability of motorists and making it clear that they are guests. In some places it means banning motor vehicles either for some periods of the day, or altogether.

Eventually, I think we will have to rid ourselves of individually operated moto cars, but I expect that is decades from now, unless there is a revolution.
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Re: Why we shouldn't be too eager to campaign for segregated cycling facilities

Postby Vorpal » 3 Jan 2019, 12:04pm

pwa wrote:I can see how having a path beside a road, but separated from it by a kerb or something, is reassuring, but in practice such paths are covered in gravel and broken glass, and don't get gritted in icy weather. Whereas a cycle lane segregated from the rest of the road only by paint is maintained as if it were road. I use the latter (if it is wide enough) but not the former.

The opposite is true in Norway. During winter cycle lanes tend to be neglected, and collect the crap thrown to the side by passing motor vehicles, while cycle paths are cleared. They aren't gritted, though. Instead, they spread gravel, which is fine for winter bikes and winter tyres, and works much better than salt-grit in low traffic places. Also, they gather it up in the spring, wash it, and reuse it subsequent years. And it does no harm to plants or crops.
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Re: Why we shouldn't be too eager to campaign for segregated cycling facilities

Postby mjr » 3 Jan 2019, 12:31pm

pwa wrote:Whereas a cycle lane segregated from the rest of the road only by paint is maintained as if it were road. I use the latter (if it is wide enough) but not the former.

A little gravel doesn't bother me much and broken glass here gets cleaned switftly once reported (0500 CLEANUP / 2532687 in West Norfolk, www.fixMyStreet.com elsewhere). Few are gritted and those that are aren't particularly effective (cycles aren't heavy enough to activate grit) but that's true of most of the sort of roads that are better for cycling on too.

pwa wrote:Whereas a cycle lane segregated from the rest of the road only by paint is maintained as if it were road. I use the latter (if it is wide enough) but not the former.

We don't have many of those here but that doesn't seem to be true. The all-traffic bit of the road gets the lion's share of patching and resurfacing even though motorists in heavy vehicles routinely ignore paint and drive in and damage cycle lanes even more than they do unprotected cycle tracks.

Worse, when the whole width has been resurfaced, sometimes cycle lanes have been painted back in at minimum width instead of their previous better width - something that paint is always more vulnerable to than a cycleway protected by posts or kerbs. Finally, utilities seem to be allowed to get away with worse patching in the cycle lanes despite cycles being far more vulnerable to injury from such defects - I suspect an injured cyclist is cheaper than a damaged posh car alloy wheel.

I think I'd be quite happy if all painted cycle lanes narrower than 1.8m had to be either widened to that or removed so bad motorists could no longer use the cyclist being in a different (but substandard narrow) lane as an excuse for close passing.
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Re: Why we shouldn't be too eager to campaign for segregated cycling facilities

Postby Bmblbzzz » 3 Jan 2019, 1:21pm

Vorpal is speaking reason.

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Re: Why we shouldn't be too eager to campaign for segregated cycling facilities

Postby reohn2 » 3 Jan 2019, 1:35pm

Bmblbzzz wrote:Vorpal is speaking reason.

+1
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